All Hail The Orb: Worldcoin – Crypto Critics' Corner

Bennett and Cas discuss Sam Altman and his new project, Worldcoin, which promises to provide 'proof of humanity' if you let them scan your eyeball. This episode was recorded on Thursday July 27th, 2023.

Cas Piancey and Bennett Tomlin discuss Sam Altman and his new project Worldcoin which promises to provide ‘proof of humanity’ if you let them scan your eyeball.

This episode was recorded on July 27th, 2023.

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Other episodes mentioned in this episode:

• Episode 83 – Contagion and Cascading Liquidations in Cryptocurrency
• FTX Playlist

Other resources mentioned in this episode:

• Worldcoin Launch
• Worldcoin in China and Myanmar
• Sam Altman Bunker

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English Transcript:

00:00:05:01 - 00:00:26:24
Cas Piancey
Welcome back, everyone. I am Cas Piancey. I'm joined, as usual, by my partner in crime, Bennett Tomlin. We're both dressed exactly the same because we're recording one episode right after the other, so no need to check in. We already know how we're both doing. We are going to be talking about something that I'm surprised we haven't addressed in the months and months and months, years, I guess, now that it's been going on.

00:00:26:24 - 00:00:54:01
Cas Piancey
But we're going to be talking about Worldcoin today, which is now officially released. So I guess now is the time to discuss it. If you're not familiar with Worldcoin, I'll just quickly bring you up to the basics of it, which is to say that it is a token associated with what are called the orbs, and these orbs are iris scanning orbs like literally orbs.

00:00:54:01 - 00:01:14:27
Cas Piancey
They're about this big and you put your face up to it and it scans your irises. And in places outside of the U.S. and a few other countries, you get Worldcoin for it. You get this token for scanning your eyeballs. I don't know if it's like 25 Worldcoin or something like that, right? You get some amount of Worldcoin for scanning your eyeballs in the U.S. you get nothing for scanning your eyeballs.

00:01:14:27 - 00:01:46:10
Cas Piancey
So that is a beautiful benefit for giving up your personal data is that you you get nothing. Why are they scanning irises? This is a proof of personhood concept. Where they are proving that you are a human being. This is by the same guy who brought us OpenAI. So the idea is that we need to start worrying about AI's ability to imitate humans, and we're going to need to come up with some way quickly to counter this.

00:01:46:17 - 00:01:54:26
Cas Piancey
And the bet they're going with is iris scans. I think I've got that pretty much right. What did I miss Bennett? Go ahead.

00:01:54:28 - 00:01:57:10
Bennett Tomlin
Are you sure they're Iris? I thought they were retina.

00:01:57:12 - 00:01:58:28
Cas Piancey
It's Iris scanning, I think.

00:01:59:01 - 00:02:28:23
Bennett Tomlin
Hmm. So, yeah, as you mentioned, there's these orbs, they scan your eyeball and then they generate from that a key. This key corresponds to your address in a cryptographic way. And it is all supposed to be done in a way, using zero knowledge proofs where you can like where this can be revealed without necessarily revealing you. And like you mentioned, the idea they wanted to solve is various forms of Sybil attacks. In cryptocurrency

00:02:28:23 - 00:03:05:05
Bennett Tomlin
this can sometimes be one person running a lot of addresses, or as you mentioned in the future this might be agents pretending to be human in cases where we only want humans involved. The problems with it are myriad. But I think what's what's especially fascinate ing is some of the reporting that came out when they first launched The Orb, where there were stories of people being coerced to effectively give up this biometric data and we're being forced to effectively then transfer the coins they were given to other individuals, right?

00:03:05:08 - 00:03:14:18
Bennett Tomlin
Where the people who were giving up their identifying information were not actually getting the supposed reward. And that this that was one of the interesting dynamics when they first launched these orbs.

00:03:14:22 - 00:03:32:07
Cas Piancey
There's also been other issues with this and the one that's concerned me the most that I heard about was and we're specifically talking about gaming the system here, both you and I. The the one that I heard about was that Chinese investors or not investors, I don't know what the the term is for this

00:03:32:13 - 00:03:32:19
Bennett Tomlin
Mobsters.

00:03:32:19 - 00:03:36:21
Cas Piancey
according to them, but people who people who are given the orbs to go scan eyeballs with them.

00:03:37:15 - 00:03:58:01
Cas Piancey
The people who were given that duty in China were going to places like Myanmar and other Southeast Asian countries bribing people with, I don't know, something cheap, right. Like a cigarette or whatever. Right. Something that they could hand out to thousands and thousands of people. And in return they were giving them nothing. Right. They weren't giving them their their data.

00:03:58:01 - 00:04:24:12
Cas Piancey
They weren't giving them their coins. There was there was no there was no trade off here. They were just fucking taking these people's data, harvesting it for themselves and then able to accumulate thousands, millions of Worldcoins, whatever. That's pretty scary. That is really unfortunate. But also, again, none of this shocks me. Like, none. Never, none like, oh, people are going to be greedy and there's a system that can be gamed.

00:04:24:14 - 00:04:54:25
Cas Piancey
Wow. I can't believe this is happening. But I think part of the issue that the reason we're talking about these two examples, for instance, is because if it's so easily gamed by people right now, just greedy people, why would you think this would be able to stand the test of a very, very intelligent hyper aware A.I. or right like I am, I am certain their considerations not being made for how this could be attacked and destroyed.

00:04:54:28 - 00:05:37:02
Bennett Tomlin
And broadly, like let's imagine we accidentally create Skynet. Why wouldn't the like A.I., like you're saying go on Craigslist and post an ad and take advantage of the people who show up, Right? Pay someone to go stand out there with the orb or whatever. And like do whatever to try to inappropriately fool this system. And broadly is having an address tied irrevocably to your biometric information that tracks your various interactions really desirable?

00:05:37:04 - 00:05:51:11
Bennett Tomlin
I understand the point of Worldcoin is that these zero knowledge proofs may prevent that information from being wrongfully exposed. But man, it feels like you're putting a lot on that assumption.

00:05:51:13 - 00:06:12:01
Cas Piancey
Yeah, so and to be fair here, I think a lot of the argument against what we're even saying right now would be you giving a lot of trust to all sorts of people right now, like you are trusting the government with your Social Security number and other data, like important data you're trusting your credit card companies with or your banks with a bunch of important data here.

00:06:12:06 - 00:06:25:15
Cas Piancey
And these these people have leaked data time and time and time and time and time again. So, you know, are we safer now necessarily than with this thing? I don't know. I don't know about that.

00:06:25:16 - 00:06:33:15
Bennett Tomlin
I mean, we're objectively worse, right, Because those things still exist. Those things will continue to exist. This is in addition to.

00:06:33:18 - 00:06:35:24
Cas Piancey
Oh, a new attack vectors. Sure.

00:06:35:27 - 00:06:37:16
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah.

00:06:37:19 - 00:07:04:17
Cas Piancey
Sure. But the the goal and I don't know if this is still one of the things that's mentioned with Worldcoin, but I know that there's like people who see this as like a way to move forward with universal basic income or some other like societal they, they try to spin these projects as like a societal value add right that this would ultimately be a good thing for society to have, and they'll spin that any way they can.

00:07:04:17 - 00:07:28:21
Cas Piancey
Whether that's like you believe in UBI or maybe maybe you're scared of AI or, you know, whatever, whatever it is, they're going to fucking spin it so that you also believe in this thing. And Worldcoin has been really good at that. And I do see right now kind of a there's certainly hype. I don't know how else to put it.

00:07:28:21 - 00:07:49:15
Cas Piancey
There's some hype going on with Worldcoin right now. And I, I think one of the common refrains I've seen on like from multiple journalists is this angle of like, well, I talked to Sam Altman about Worldcoin. And, you know, Sam seems like a good guy. And I'm like, okay, I I'm sorry.

00:07:49:15 - 00:07:55:13
Bennett Tomlin
Oh, the guy with the with the bunker and the guns. The guy with the guy with the gun bunker. That's the good guy. Look.

00:07:55:16 - 00:08:11:21
Cas Piancey
Regardless, though, like, I'm not going to you and I both don't know Sam Altman and like, to be quite honest, I don't care to ever meet him. I don't care about meeting super rich VCs who have bunkers and stuff. It's not not not a concern or it's not a care for me. It's not something I think.

00:08:11:21 - 00:08:14:10
Bennett Tomlin
That’s why you won't survive the AI apocalypse.

00:08:14:12 - 00:08:33:03
Cas Piancey
Yeah, the exactly the AI apocalypse. I won't. Terminator will take me out. But you know what? That's okay. I'm okay with that. Anyway, I don't care if he's a good guy, is my point. He could be the best guy. And you know what they keep saying? His intentions seem very good. I don't know why no one has heard heard the phrase the.

00:08:33:05 - 00:08:58:12
Cas Piancey
The road to hell is paved with good intentions. It is a phrase for a reason. These generalizations exist because there's, like his historic. You see it time and time again. Lots of fucking creepy weirdos had the best intentions. I don't like that. Doesn't matter what their intentions were. What matters this and this gets into a bit of what we were talking about with EA too.

00:08:58:12 - 00:09:11:03
Cas Piancey
But like this. This is actions speak louder than words and you're making up like the panopticon here. Why? Why would I be like, Oh, but he is nice though. He's making the panopticon, but he's like a very nice guy.

00:09:11:03 - 00:09:24:19
Bennett Tomlin
That's a kind of hilarious reference for you to make in this case, because Sam Bankman-Fried personally said that his, like, favorite philosopher was Jeremy Bentham, a utilitarian philosopher who created the Panopticon.

00:09:24:19 - 00:09:25:20
Cas Piancey
The panopticon.

00:09:25:23 - 00:09:31:16
Bennett Tomlin
That the creation of a panopticon was the thing that would create a moral and just society.

00:09:31:23 - 00:09:53:05
Cas Piancey
Right? Right. Yeah, I know. I mean, I almost feel like a lot of these I feel like a lot of these wealthy VC guys who are a lot of them are on board with Worldcoin, for what it's worth, right? They've partnered. I don't know who their partner or are they with A16z? I feel like that would make sense if they, if they were funded by A16z.

00:09:53:05 - 00:09:53:16
Cas Piancey
I don't know.

00:09:53:20 - 00:10:05:26
Bennett Tomlin
I, I don't know. Off the top of my head broadly, I don't really think that it matters which VCs pretend they like Sam Altman and Worldcoin. They just want to make sure that next.

00:10:05:28 - 00:10:08:14
Cas Piancey
Nailed it. I fucking nailed it, dude. I knew it.

00:10:08:17 - 00:10:10:13
Bennett Tomlin
Oh yeah, A16z led the round.

00:10:10:20 - 00:10:17:24
Cas Piancey
I knew it. It's they're so predictable. They are so predictable. I, you know, not to revel in it.

00:10:19:29 - 00:10:25:12
Bennett Tomlin
a16z loves investing in Y Combinator people. That's a tale as old as time.

00:10:25:15 - 00:10:36:26
Cas Piancey
Yeah, but they also love investing in fucking creepy crypto projects too. And that is. That is as long as that's been happening, they have been leading those rounds as well. I oh I just can't stand them.

00:10:36:27 - 00:10:41:14
Bennett Tomlin
A16z invested in the token offering and the VC rounds.

00:10:41:17 - 00:11:19:11
Cas Piancey
Yeah. Good for them. They also are for, for what it's worth, I know this is off topic but there's a lot of discussion right now going around about A16z dumping their MKR coins because yeah, they have failed to do well with them and so now they're just market dumping. Part of my point here is that Worldcoin is getting invested in by a16z and Multicoin capital and (Jesus God) Khosla ventures all of these guys they're not they're not investing in them because they believe in UBI and want to make the world a better place.

00:11:19:13 - 00:11:30:06
Cas Piancey
That's not why they're investing in Worldcoin. They're investing in it because they want to make a fucking buzz. And the best people to make a buck off of is retail banks. That's always the answer.

00:11:30:08 - 00:11:51:28
Bennett Tomlin
Well, and the other way to be confident you're going to be able to capitalize on that is investing in someone who you've already been able to capitalize on, like getting liquidity from their things, right? So if someone's already been successful, it's way easier for them to raise money because VCs become convinced that like, well, at the very least, we'll have a chance to sell this before he totally burns it down.

00:11:52:00 - 00:12:02:15
Cas Piancey
Right? Yep. It's also worth pointing out that I don't neither one of us is calling Worldcoin like a scam. It's not like a fraud.

00:12:02:18 - 00:12:05:00
Bennett Tomlin
It's I think this is in describes I think

00:12:05:00 - 00:12:05:14
Cas Piancey
Exactly.

00:12:05:14 - 00:12:06:24
Bennett Tomlin
it’s just a bad thing.

00:12:06:26 - 00:12:27:00
Cas Piancey
Exactly We don't like the product. We don't like who's involved in the product and we don't like what they think is like the the good things about it. None of it seems like a positive to us, and that's why we're talking about it. It's not because it's a fraud. It's not because it's a scam. It's not we're not making any any claims like that.

00:12:27:00 - 00:12:44:22
Cas Piancey
But I do think that the the excuse of like good intentions and who knows and maybe some good can be brought with this. It's just it's not good enough for me. I don't like that I don't like that as a as an excuse. I think it's weak and and I don't think that's as you said, I don't think this product I think it's a terrible product.

00:12:44:22 - 00:13:02:19
Cas Piancey
I think it shouldn't exist as a product. And while I'm not hopeful that it disappears, I I'm obviously I think it's important that you and I discuss it and and voice our own personal opinion against this thing that they're they're making all these broad claims about.

00:13:02:19 - 00:13:26:13
Bennett Tomlin
Two separate things I want to add. One, I personally hate it because I personally hate innovation and innovators. Personally, I think they're bad people, you know, and too, I do think it's going to eventually fade to obscurity. I don't think Worldcoin solves in a meaningfully better way any of the actual problems people are encountering. They'll be able to expand their network for as long as they're paying people to give up their initial information.

00:13:26:21 - 00:13:39:25
Bennett Tomlin
But after that, it will gradually die out, as most of these products do, because most people don't actually want to use them. And again, as we keep circling around, this doesn't actually solve like a clear and pressing need for its users.

00:13:39:25 - 00:14:04:22
Cas Piancey
No, it doesn't. We forgot two of their most important backers, Three Arrows Capital and SBF. They took money from all kinds of great folks. I don't know. This project sucks. The the reasoning for it sucks. I don't trust the people involved. I don't trust the people investing in it. It has trouble written all over it. Also, the reason it's not being offered in the United States is because it would be an unregistered security if they decided to do that.

00:14:04:22 - 00:14:24:04
Cas Piancey
And I think that's clear because they're not they're not giving away these coins in America, which, okay, fine, I guess they don't want to go through the proper paperwork or whatever it would take to to to make this available to US citizens. I don't know what the trading policy is for it for American citizens. I'm sure you can hold it.

00:14:24:06 - 00:14:25:17
Bennett Tomlin
I mean, where is it listed?

00:14:25:23 - 00:14:48:17
Cas Piancey
Well, yeah. Getting your hands on it is a whole different story that probably does involve some weird illegal shit. But whatever. Who knows? Maybe you could just do P2P. That's not illegal. Having someone with some Worldcoin in a different place sell it to you Wouldn't be illegal, I don't think. Not a lawyer. I have no idea. It's an it's just an interesting thought.

00:14:48:17 - 00:15:05:29
Cas Piancey
I'm. I'm considering right now because I know there's going to be a lot of Americans who are going to get their hands on it. And I'm trying to be like, well, they're not they're not violating any law, but maybe they're violating a law. Just, you know, however, they're figuring out a way to get it. Regardless, though, that's not the people I want.

00:15:06:01 - 00:15:38:01
Cas Piancey
I just wish like, I don't know, it seems like a lot of people are pretty ready and willing to give up their their biometric data for very little, which I don't know. There's I guess there's other arguments here that I've heard. You know, you give the government you have to give your government biometric data to get to whatever it's called, like fastpass stuff for for being at the airport, TSA, precheck and there's the other one, there's two different kinds.

00:15:38:08 - 00:16:04:21
Cas Piancey
There's TSA PreCheck and some other method. And one of those is eyeball retina scan, I think. And one of them is another form that like just just to be clear here, that provides like some pretty sincere value like that is a quite a valuable resource for a lot of people If you're traveling all the time, being able to skip these big lines and do your thing, that is a super valuable resource to them.

00:16:04:23 - 00:16:08:23
Cas Piancey
Definitely worth more than 25 made up fucking coins on a blockchain.

00:16:09:00 - 00:16:23:25
Bennett Tomlin
Oh, I'll also add the stance that our abuses are no worse than those of the United States government. Perhaps not the best selling point you can come up with for your private company.

00:16:23:27 - 00:16:32:05
Cas Piancey
Yeah. Fair. Fair, fair, Right. Yeah. Hey, the Chinese government also collects all this information. What's the big deal? I mean.

00:16:32:08 - 00:16:36:01
Bennett Tomlin
That that would be the deal.

00:16:36:03 - 00:16:59:00
Cas Piancey
Yeah. Yeah, fair enough. Anyway, yeah, this is. This is a pretty fast episode. I don't think there's much for us to say. We're not. We're not violently opposed to them and to them, like, existing as an entity. We're not trying to convince people they're scamming you. We just disagree with, with why they exist and why they pretend that they're important.

00:16:59:00 - 00:17:02:02
Cas Piancey
I don't know. Yeah. Anything else you'd like to add about this project?

00:17:02:05 - 00:17:24:07
Bennett Tomlin
The last thing I want to close on is I think Worldcoin is a good example of the kind of jargon washing that can happen when you take a bad idea, scanning people's eye balls and giving them a Chuck E. Cheese token and you run it through enough buzzwords. A.I., biometric data verification, civil resistance, zero knowledge proved censorship resistant transfers.

00:17:24:10 - 00:17:43:10
Bennett Tomlin
By the time you've gotten through all your buzzwords, people have forgotten that your pictures will scan your eyeball and give you Chuck E. Cheese tokens. And there's a lot of projects in cryptocurrency that do fundamentally that same trick they layer in of jargon and bullshit on top of the fundamentally bad idea that they hope enough people will forget that it's a fundamentally bad idea.

00:17:43:10 - 00:17:49:16
Bennett Tomlin
And I think that's what Worldcoin is. I think it probably does exactly what they say it does. It's just not a thing we need anything doing.

00:17:49:19 - 00:18:10:11
Cas Piancey
Yeah, and a lot of a lot of our listeners have actually been pointing out that CasCoin collects hair samples from everyone who buys it, that we also take blood samples, stool samples and, and like keep a host of other data about every CasCoin holder. And I just want to point out that it is not the same.

00:18:10:11 - 00:18:19:22
Cas Piancey
And CasCoin is like decentralized and that that data while is sold on the open market.

00:18:19:25 - 00:18:33:18
Cas Piancey
And it does it does have your name and address and all of your all of your data like associated with you, like attached to it. It isn't like it's anonymous that is important. Like, don't you want to get served good ads?

00:18:33:28 - 00:18:39:29
Cas Piancey
And that is what I want to close on. And thanks everyone for listening. And we'll be back soon.