SBF Deserves Human Rights – Crypto Critics' Corner

Today Bennett and Cas discuss SBF's legal team suggesting that their client is unable to get his medications on time or food he finds acceptable. Read our articles about it here or here.

Cas Piancey and Bennett Tomlin talk about the conditions of Sam Bankman-Fried’s detention, and how it connects with broader issues with the United States penal system.

This episode was recorded on August 28th, 2023.

Where to find the podcast:

• Spotify
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Other episodes mentioned in this episode:

• YouTube playlist of episodes about FTX, Alameda Research, and Sam Bankman-Fried
• Episode 126 – They May Be All-In, But We’re Out
• Episode 70 – The Rise and Fall of Reggie Fowler
• Episode 42 – Elizabeth Holmes, Theranos, and the Future of VC (Feat. Elizabeth Lopatto)

Other resources mentioned in this episode:

• Cas’ Op-Ed about SBF’s conditions
• Cas’ Op-Ed about how SBF will not go free
• Bennett’s newsletter about how SBF did not get away with it
• Bennett’s newsletter about SBF’s conditions in jail
• Joe Lewis sold property to SBF

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English Transcript:

00:00:05:02 - 00:00:10:06
Cas Piancey
Welcome back, everyone. I am Cas Piancey. I'm joined, as usual, by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett Tomlin.

00:00:10:06 - 00:00:11:04
Cas Piancey
We’re both good

00:00:11:04 - 00:00:14:02
Cas Piancey
we have already recorded an episode. So we're dumping in

00:00:14:02 - 00:00:14:19
Cas Piancey
dumping in

00:00:14:19 - 00:00:15:21
Cas Piancey
probably the wrong way to put it.

00:00:15:21 - 00:00:25:03
Bennett Tomlin
Dumping them out. One after another. Can't even stop it. The episodes just slide right through us.

00:00:25:05 - 00:00:26:23
Bennett Tomlin
Hey, it worked for all in.

00:00:26:23 - 00:00:29:10
Cas Piancey
Not the way I wanted to start this episode, but there you go.

00:00:29:10 - 00:00:32:01
Cas Piancey
Welcome back, everyone. We're going to be talking about

00:00:32:01 - 00:00:34:08
Cas Piancey
a subject that I wrote

00:00:34:08 - 00:00:37:11
Cas Piancey
an op ed about and Bennett

00:00:37:11 - 00:00:42:04
Cas Piancey
wrote a piece about as well in the newsletter for Protos.

00:00:42:04 - 00:00:51:08
Cas Piancey
Something we both seem to care about that the reaction to was pretty mixed, which is I expected honestly, I expected more vitriol for my for my statement. But

00:00:51:08 - 00:00:52:05
Cas Piancey
yeah, it was pretty mixed.

00:00:52:05 - 00:00:54:01
Cas Piancey
And some people liked it. Some people hated it.

00:00:54:01 - 00:00:57:10
Cas Piancey
we're both making the argument that while it is

00:00:57:10 - 00:01:03:17
Cas Piancey
pretty funny in a sense to see SBF struggling and in pain, I think everybody gets some real

00:01:03:17 - 00:01:06:07
Cas Piancey
value out of that in terms of they're like, Yes,

00:01:06:07 - 00:01:12:21
Cas Piancey
guy who's hurt so many people, this is legitimately right. Like this guy has damaged thousands of people, probably ruined

00:01:12:21 - 00:01:17:21
Cas Piancey
dozens, if not hundreds of people's lives for a significant, if not forever amount of time.

00:01:18:00 - 00:01:20:19
Cas Piancey
So seeing him in pain, people are enjoying a lot.

00:01:20:19 - 00:01:21:22
Cas Piancey
But I think that it's a

00:01:21:22 - 00:01:25:22
Cas Piancey
more important point that's being is being stated by him.

00:01:25:22 - 00:01:28:23
Cas Piancey
basically he went to court and said that

00:01:28:23 - 00:01:30:02
Cas Piancey
he's not getting his

00:01:30:02 - 00:01:31:21
Cas Piancey
medications on time.

00:01:31:21 - 00:01:37:03
Cas Piancey
He's on as far as we know. I don't know how many medications he's on, but we know for sure that he's on Emsam,

00:01:37:03 - 00:01:38:08
Cas Piancey
and he's on

00:01:38:08 - 00:01:43:21
Cas Piancey
Adderall now, Adderall, I'm sure most people are familiar with this for treatment of ADHD and some other mental

00:01:43:21 - 00:01:44:13
Cas Piancey
disorders.

00:01:44:13 - 00:01:46:19
Cas Piancey
Emsam is a pretty serious

00:01:46:19 - 00:01:49:05
Cas Piancey
drug as far as I can tell, in terms of like

00:01:49:05 - 00:01:50:12
Cas Piancey
its effects on you.

00:01:50:12 - 00:01:52:00
Cas Piancey
And it seems like he's taking

00:01:52:00 - 00:01:52:19
Cas Piancey
a lot of it

00:01:52:19 - 00:01:57:14
Cas Piancey
For both of them, for both the I guess I don't know. I don't know. I'm not a doctor. I don't know what a lot is.

00:01:57:14 - 00:02:04:09
Cas Piancey
Basically, he's not getting his drugs and he's not getting the vegan meals he wants. He wants vegan meals, and he's not getting those vegan meals because

00:02:04:09 - 00:02:07:21
Cas Piancey
I guess the prison system is basically like, why should he? He's not special.

00:02:07:21 - 00:02:10:06
Cas Piancey
But therein lies the problem, which is,

00:02:10:06 - 00:02:13:12
Cas Piancey
don't you think prisoners should be getting the medical treatment they need?

00:02:13:12 - 00:02:14:05
Cas Piancey
And

00:02:14:05 - 00:02:15:12
Cas Piancey
don't you think they

00:02:15:12 - 00:02:17:03
Cas Piancey
should be getting basic food

00:02:17:03 - 00:02:22:05
Cas Piancey
given to them, even if it's something demanded, like vegan food or vegetarian food?

00:02:22:05 - 00:02:23:22
Cas Piancey
Yeah. Why don't you get us started off on that,

00:02:23:22 - 00:02:27:00
Bennett Tomlin
I think this issue is kind of

00:02:27:00 - 00:02:32:08
Bennett Tomlin
multifactorial and multifaceted, and I understand why a lot of people are having the feelings they're have

00:02:32:08 - 00:02:42:16
Bennett Tomlin
having. And so, like, first I want to acknowledge that, like Sam Bankman-Fried’s experience with the justice system has been one very much shaped by his privilege, right?

00:02:42:16 - 00:02:55:19
Bennett Tomlin
Like he was able to find the people to put up his massive bond. And even after, like repeated bail violations, connecting to the VPN, doing all these other things, he remained free until he started doing what

00:02:55:19 - 00:03:02:04
Bennett Tomlin
I'm not going to say is legally witness tampering because I'm not a prosecutor. But that feels a lot like witness intimidation.

00:03:02:09 - 00:03:06:10
Bennett Tomlin
As soon as he started doing that, now he has to go back to prison and so, yes, they make me free.

00:03:06:10 - 00:03:08:21
Cas Piancey
Just. Just so you're you're. You understand. Sam Bankman-Fried released

00:03:08:06 - 00:03:08:23
Bennett Tomlin
Sure.

00:03:11:10 - 00:03:12:16
Cas Piancey
Sam Bankman-Fried released

00:03:12:16 - 00:03:13:20
Cas Piancey
Caroline Ellison's

00:03:13:20 - 00:03:19:18
Cas Piancey
personal diaries. Now, Caroline Ellison was the head of trading over at Alameda Research at the time of the collapse.

00:03:19:18 - 00:03:21:12
Cas Piancey
And he released these very personal

00:03:21:12 - 00:03:24:03
Cas Piancey
kind of sensational diaries to The New York Times,

00:03:24:03 - 00:03:26:03
Cas Piancey
which is just wild, as you said.

00:03:26:03 - 00:03:28:17
Cas Piancey
Like you, he had been reprimanded

00:03:28:17 - 00:03:33:11
Cas Piancey
before for for his bail violations and kind of told to he was skating on thin ice already.

00:03:33:11 - 00:03:34:13
Cas Piancey
And I do get

00:03:34:13 - 00:03:42:07
Cas Piancey
why people are like, well, if you didn't want to go back to jail and get treated like crap, maybe you should have thought about that. Understood. But anyway, sorry, I just wanted to

00:03:42:07 - 00:03:55:13
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah. No. And I think that's absolutely true. Sam Bankman-Fried was lucky to get the bail conditions he did and should not have been violating them. And repeated violation of bail means he should be

00:03:55:13 - 00:03:57:06
Bennett Tomlin
in pretrial detention.

00:03:57:08 - 00:04:00:00
Bennett Tomlin
And like one of the other things that's come up is

00:04:00:00 - 00:04:02:01
Bennett Tomlin
Laurence Tribe, a constitutional lawyer,

00:04:02:01 - 00:04:08:16
Bennett Tomlin
wrote a motion, wrote a letter to the court describing Sam Bateman Freed's treatment, and insisted that

00:04:08:16 - 00:04:14:13
Bennett Tomlin
if Sam Bankman-Fried were to be detained where he was talking about being detained, not having access to

00:04:14:13 - 00:04:21:21
Bennett Tomlin
computer would make preparing his defense much more difficult than that represented like a potential constitutional issue.

00:04:21:23 - 00:04:32:03
Bennett Tomlin
And I think there's a bit of merit there. But in this gets into like the bigger problem here, that these problems are so much bigger than Sam Bankman-Fried, right? Like

00:04:32:03 - 00:04:46:13
Bennett Tomlin
not just Sam Bankman-Fried should be able to get their medications and like a diet in accordance with their moral wishes. Everyone being held in pretrial detention is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

00:04:46:15 - 00:04:47:20
Bennett Tomlin
These are

00:04:47:20 - 00:05:04:22
Bennett Tomlin
people who deserve to be like to have reasonable standards. Well, they're being detained. Should have access to things that help them prepare their defenses, should be able to receive medications they need. And the United States justice system fails to provide that for such a vast number

00:05:04:22 - 00:05:07:00
Bennett Tomlin
of inmates, including

00:05:07:00 - 00:05:10:05
Bennett Tomlin
because he is there right now, Sam Bankman-Fried.

00:05:10:05 - 00:05:12:09
Cas Piancey
Yeah. I mean, I think actually part of this for me

00:05:12:09 - 00:05:19:20
Cas Piancey
calls into attention how serious the issues are in the justice and penal systems of the United States of America.

00:05:19:20 - 00:05:21:05
Cas Piancey
Right. Because here we have

00:05:21:05 - 00:05:23:22
Cas Piancey
possibly one of the most famous

00:05:23:22 - 00:05:26:05
Cas Piancey
white collar criminals of all time,

00:05:26:05 - 00:05:27:05
Cas Piancey
not just of

00:05:27:05 - 00:05:32:15
Cas Piancey
the past year or two of all time. He's up there with Elizabeth Holmes and Bernie Madoff like this guy

00:05:32:15 - 00:05:33:10
Cas Piancey
is

00:05:33:10 - 00:05:37:13
Cas Piancey
going to go down in history as one of the biggest financial scammers

00:05:37:13 - 00:05:40:21
Cas Piancey
and possibly allegedly, maybe he'll get off in.

00:05:40:21 - 00:05:44:10
Cas Piancey
No crimes were committed in fucking la la land. But

00:05:44:10 - 00:05:51:14
Cas Piancey
anyway, my point here being that this guy is as big as it gets and the fact he's still being mistreated in prison

00:05:51:14 - 00:05:54:17
Cas Piancey
or in sorry, excuse me, in pretrial detention in jail

00:05:54:17 - 00:06:02:12
Cas Piancey
Speaks to how broken the system is. Imagine how the people with no voice are doing right now. Imagine how the people who don't have money to pay for bail, even so, end up in prison for or jail for weeks or months before they go to trial.

00:05:59:06 - 00:06:00:03
Bennett Tomlin
Mm hmm.

00:06:07:22 - 00:06:11:04
Cas Piancey
or months before they go to

00:06:11:04 - 00:06:15:14
Cas Piancey
trial. these are real issues that are happening every day to

00:06:15:14 - 00:06:17:07
Cas Piancey
millions of people, not

00:06:17:07 - 00:06:20:17
Cas Piancey
not just SBF. And that's the important part of this.

00:06:20:17 - 00:06:22:22
Cas Piancey
That's why I'm glad it's being

00:06:22:22 - 00:06:28:17
Cas Piancey
it being there's some attention being brought to it. Whether or not people agree with whether SBF should be

00:06:28:17 - 00:06:35:09
Cas Piancey
given these basic human rights, I think he should. Whether other people think so, I guess is just how angry they are with him.

00:06:35:09 - 00:06:35:18
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah.

00:06:35:18 - 00:06:41:18
Bennett Tomlin
I especially understand why I like other people who have had experiences with the criminal justice system,

00:06:41:18 - 00:06:59:20
Bennett Tomlin
might end up feeling particularly frustrated themselves because they'll be they may see it as I had it even worse than that. And I didn't even steal $9 billion from my customers, you know, And so I certainly understand there's lots of reasons for lots of people to be lashing out.

00:06:59:20 - 00:07:04:14
Bennett Tomlin
But like you said, fundamentally, the thing is people deserve

00:07:04:14 - 00:07:22:08
Bennett Tomlin
rights. They deserve to have access to these things that help them form their defenses and they deserve a strenuous defense on their behalf in the justice system. And those things are important. Those things we should strive to provide those to everyone. And everyone happens to include him.

00:07:22:08 - 00:07:27:11
Cas Piancey
Yes. And a lot of these a lot of these issues are totally fixable as far as I'm concerned.

00:07:27:11 - 00:07:27:21
Cas Piancey
Like

00:07:27:21 - 00:07:38:22
Cas Piancey
vegan meals, there's a lot of people pushing back on my statements about that. I was like, Oh, give him his vegan meals, just give it to him. Everyone's like, Well, he doesn't necessarily deserve to have It's not like it's covered by the Constitution. And

00:07:38:22 - 00:07:42:15
Cas Piancey
i.e. there are prisoners who are Jewish or Muslim people

00:07:42:15 - 00:07:43:16
Cas Piancey
who are given Kosher or Halal meals for their religious needs.

00:07:49:00 - 00:07:51:10
Cas Piancey
The pushback for the veganism

00:07:51:10 - 00:07:53:22
Cas Piancey
that I heard was, well, this isn't a religious thing.

00:07:53:22 - 00:07:59:02
Cas Piancey
I want to push back on that and just say one Vegan meals are incredibly easy to cook.

00:07:59:02 - 00:08:03:04
Cas Piancey
We're talking about rice, bread and vegetables. Like

00:08:03:04 - 00:08:12:16
Cas Piancey
if you're not already, if you don't already have those things available for prisoners, there's a problem. Those all of those ingredients should be actively there for you to be able to make this thing.

00:08:12:16 - 00:08:24:09
Cas Piancey
I know that they make vegetarian meals for vegetarian because probably because there's Hindu prisoners and they need to some of them need to follow strict vegetarian meals and guidelines. Right.

00:08:24:09 - 00:08:25:00
Cas Piancey
But

00:08:25:00 - 00:08:26:14
Cas Piancey
we are equipped to handle this.

00:08:26:14 - 00:08:27:14
Cas Piancey
We have the money.

00:08:27:14 - 00:08:34:10
Cas Piancey
We have the the rules and regulations in place that this should not be an issue. It's crazy to me to push back on the idea that, like,

00:08:34:10 - 00:08:47:03
Bennett Tomlin
well, and the thing I went to highlight there is there often are legal protections for people with sincerely held religious beliefs to get access to certain things, like you're talking about kosher, halal, and things like that.

00:08:47:03 - 00:09:10:05
Bennett Tomlin
And often our prison system fails to do what it's legally supposed to in many of those cases as well. And again, this is just an example of the pattern in history of human rights abuses across the U.S. penal system. Like there's a reason international human rights organizations regularly raise alarms about the U.S. prison system. And it's because there are regular and massive human rights abuses in our prison system.

00:09:10:05 - 00:09:25:05
Cas Piancey
Yep. And there's and that's also that brings up another point that I brought up, which is, you know, people, I think, like to assume like, oh, well, this guy's a big fucking scammer. He deserves to rot in jail and get shivved and get treated like shit. I hope. I hope that's what happens. And I go, okay,

00:09:25:05 - 00:09:27:22
Cas Piancey
just to for some perspective here,

00:09:27:22 - 00:09:32:11
Cas Piancey
5% of the entire U.S. population is going to spend some time behind bars.

00:09:32:13 - 00:09:48:05
Cas Piancey
So you're going to if you're not the one who ends up behind you in jail at some point or in prison at some point, someone you know absolutely will. 100% sure. 100% sure. Right. If you go outside and meet people, someone you know will go to jail or prison,

00:09:48:05 - 00:09:52:05
Cas Piancey
do you want them to be treated respectfully and with dignity or do you not give a shit?

00:09:52:05 - 00:10:03:15
Cas Piancey
Do you really think like anyone who's in jail, anyone who who's in prison deserves the worst kind of treatment? And it's time to reflect on these things? You know, we live in a society. It's it's true, though, like

00:10:03:15 - 00:10:04:23
Cas Piancey
we shouldn't be.

00:10:04:23 - 00:10:07:19
Cas Piancey
The fact these are it's such punitive measures,

00:10:07:19 - 00:10:20:17
Cas Piancey
right? Instead of worrying about recidivism, instead of worrying about rehabilitation, instead of worrying about making sure that these people don't repeat their fucking problems when they go back into society, we're focused on hurting people as much as possible.

00:10:20:21 - 00:10:25:00
Cas Piancey
And the reality is, is Sam Bankman-Fried gets 15 years in prison

00:10:25:00 - 00:10:25:21
Cas Piancey
or something

00:10:25:21 - 00:10:27:14
Cas Piancey
ten, 15, 20

00:10:27:14 - 00:10:30:09
Cas Piancey
and is treated like horseshit the entire time.

00:10:30:09 - 00:10:30:18
Cas Piancey
Like

00:10:30:18 - 00:10:32:13
Cas Piancey
no human rights.

00:10:32:13 - 00:10:34:08
Cas Piancey
Do you think he's going to come out a

00:10:34:08 - 00:10:34:18
Cas Piancey
like,

00:10:34:18 - 00:10:35:16
Cas Piancey
capable

00:10:35:16 - 00:10:37:07
Cas Piancey
and reasonable human being?

00:10:37:07 - 00:10:39:12
Cas Piancey
At least if you try to rehabilitate him,

00:10:39:12 - 00:10:43:05
Cas Piancey
he's not necessarily going to be as bad. At least you can say you tried.

00:10:43:07 - 00:10:43:19
Cas Piancey
I think

00:10:43:19 - 00:10:46:10
Cas Piancey
just damaging someone repeatedly.

00:10:46:10 - 00:10:52:08
Cas Piancey
We know what that does to people. So I just don't understand this at all. And I think people need to reevaluate

00:10:52:08 - 00:10:53:00
Cas Piancey
their

00:10:53:00 - 00:11:02:21
Cas Piancey
it's like vengeance is just so easy. And I think people really need to reevaluate where their morals and ethics lie when it comes to this. I get it. It's easy to hate SBF

00:11:02:21 - 00:11:09:17
Cas Piancey
he is a total scammer. He lies constantly. The dude cannot open his mouth and speak any honest truth

00:11:09:17 - 00:11:14:08
Cas Piancey
for years on end. He's like, His behavior is disgusting.

00:11:14:08 - 00:11:20:22
Cas Piancey
He's as despicable as it gets without getting into, like, murder and other horrifying crimes, Right? He's disgusting.

00:11:20:22 - 00:11:21:13
Cas Piancey
Fine.

00:11:21:13 - 00:11:23:00
Cas Piancey
He's also a human being. Like,

00:11:23:00 - 00:11:28:08
Cas Piancey
reaction was just so it was kind of like, man, I don't understand how so many people think this is acceptable. You know?

00:11:24:09 - 00:11:24:22
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah,

00:11:30:06 - 00:11:37:02
Bennett Tomlin
yeah. And like, that's what your op ed was about. And there was definitely a lot of people who agree that human beings deserve

00:11:37:02 - 00:11:39:21
Bennett Tomlin
treatment as human beings, which is good.

00:11:41:00 - 00:12:07:12
Bennett Tomlin
The other thing I want to talk about besides this, which is also something we talked about a little bit in our Reggie Fowler episode, if people want to go back and listen to that, there's been still conspiracy theory theories about Sam Bankman-Fried and his ongoing criminal prosecution, including the fact that as part of our extradition treaty with the Bahamas, we have certain responsibilities about when charges are introduced and when people are extradited.

00:12:07:14 - 00:12:14:21
Bennett Tomlin
And those were not necessarily followed with Sam Bankman-Fried, which has since required certain charges to be removed

00:12:14:21 - 00:12:26:19
Bennett Tomlin
from the current trial date. And the allegations either incorporated in to other existing charges or other charges are pending reintroduce reintroduction for a future trial date.

00:12:26:19 - 00:12:45:00
Bennett Tomlin
Yes. And so those charges are not really going away. And as we've talked about before, in the case of Sam Bankman-Fried, if prosecutors really wanted, they could go through an add one way or fraud charge for like every single person who sent money to Alameda Research under like the false pretenses that it was going to FTX or something.

00:12:45:00 - 00:13:05:12
Bennett Tomlin
Right. And so prosecutors can and potentially will still scale up his prosecution in the future if that's what they think is justified, inappropriate. So I've just been a little bit frustrated with some of the conspiracy theories around those dropping of charges. And like the other thing I want to emphasize, just to kind of make sure people understand this,

00:13:05:12 - 00:13:09:20
Bennett Tomlin
just because Sam Bankman-Fried is pleading not guilty right now

00:13:09:20 - 00:13:13:01
Bennett Tomlin
does not mean he will continue to plead not guilty.

00:13:13:01 - 00:13:24:21
Bennett Tomlin
Often you are required to plead not guilty initially, even if you think you are guilty just because, like the system's not ready for you to plead guilty yet. And like that's an actual thing that exists.

00:13:25:13 - 00:13:30:02
Cas Piancey
want to be clear here, too. If you have a capable legal team behind you, which, as far as I know, he does,

00:13:30:02 - 00:13:34:09
Cas Piancey
you're generally not going to plead guilty right away. Why? Well, you're not going to get anything in return,

00:13:34:09 - 00:13:36:02
Bennett Tomlin
exactly.

00:13:36:02 - 00:13:41:13
Cas Piancey
and you go, I plead guilty, well, they're going to accept your guilty plea and they are going to hang you from the gallows.

00:13:41:13 - 00:13:50:04
Cas Piancey
you got to get something in return and to get something in return, you're going to play a little bit of a game. And that, unfortunately, whether we like it or not, is a part of the legal system, right?

00:13:50:04 - 00:13:52:09
Bennett Tomlin
Yes.

00:13:52:09 - 00:13:52:21
Cas Piancey
for

00:13:52:21 - 00:13:56:21
Cas Piancey
for you to plead guilty, give them something and them to be like, okay, well then

00:13:56:21 - 00:13:57:16
Cas Piancey
we'll cut you a deal.

00:13:57:16 - 00:14:04:19
Cas Piancey
And that's what SBF is hoping will happen. That doesn't mean that's what happens. That doesn't mean he gets only five years or only ten years or who knows.

00:14:04:19 - 00:14:08:15
Cas Piancey
But that's what SBF wants to happen, and we don't know if it will.

00:14:08:15 - 00:14:13:05
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah. Sam Bankman-Fried goal, as far as I can tell right now, is basically to

00:14:13:05 - 00:14:18:02
Bennett Tomlin
muddy the waters, cast doubt on key witnesses in the evidence they're introducing.

00:14:18:07 - 00:14:39:17
Bennett Tomlin
Try to place the blame like his mens rea. His head state for many of these decisions say that that state was induced by legal counsel and other things to make it so that prosecutors don't want to add more charges. That'll be hard to prove. So that, like you're saying, he can eventually come up with some deal where he shares whatever information he does have in exchange for a reduced sentence, yadda, yadda, yadda.

00:14:39:17 - 00:14:43:01
Bennett Tomlin
that's the meta probably of what his team is planning to do.

00:14:43:01 - 00:14:45:16
Bennett Tomlin
The other thing I want to emphasize to people is

00:14:45:16 - 00:14:49:23
Bennett Tomlin
from where I'm sitting, and again, we're not lawyers, we're definitely not prosecutors,

00:14:49:23 - 00:14:58:20
Bennett Tomlin
we're not experts, but it seems quite likely to me that Sam Bankman-Fried is going to prison for much longer than Sam Bankman-Fried would want to go to prison

00:14:58:20 - 00:14:59:10
Bennett Tomlin
there.

00:14:59:11 - 00:15:23:00
Bennett Tomlin
Oh, yeah, but there are already guilty pleas from almost all the rest of like the top executives at FTX. They have full cooperation, access to all the communications, like all the text messages, all the records, all the logs. They have such an over, what, 4 million pages or something was the initial like discovery they’re sending over to him.

00:15:23:02 - 00:15:31:16
Bennett Tomlin
There are massive quantities of evidence mat powerful cooperating witnesses like he's in a really bad place.

00:15:31:16 - 00:15:38:04
Cas Piancey
that's just for evidence. I want I want people to understand that this is just this is we're just saying like, oh, shit, there's a lot of evidence against this guy,

00:15:38:04 - 00:15:39:11
Cas Piancey
so he's in trouble on that front.

00:15:39:11 - 00:15:42:02
Cas Piancey
But I want to point people to a recent guilty

00:15:42:02 - 00:15:44:08
Cas Piancey
white collar criminal, Elizabeth Holmes.

00:15:44:08 - 00:15:47:11
Cas Piancey
Okay. She is going to be doing nine years in a federal prison.

00:15:47:11 - 00:15:49:21
Cas Piancey
Okay? She just had her second baby.

00:15:49:21 - 00:15:53:12
Cas Piancey
She was pregnant during the trial. If that isn't going to win, you

00:15:53:12 - 00:15:54:07
Cas Piancey
some,

00:15:54:07 - 00:16:00:03
Cas Piancey
you know, benefit of the doubt and some oh, my gosh. Well, at least, you know, she's a she's a mother.

00:16:00:03 - 00:16:11:19
Cas Piancey
Now, we got to we got to make sure that she's able to spend time with her kids and they don't grow up without a mom and blah, blah, blah. She's doing nine years behind bars for her crimes. She didn't hurt nearly as many people as Sam Bankman-Fried.

00:16:11:19 - 00:16:12:19
Cas Piancey
She only hurt

00:16:12:19 - 00:16:18:16
Cas Piancey
mostly just very wealthy people. So like in terms of that, just reflect on that, right?

00:16:18:19 - 00:16:22:15
Cas Piancey
That's nine years for someone who did essentially a smaller fraud

00:16:22:15 - 00:16:26:05
Cas Piancey
that hurt less people and is a more sympathetic character.

00:16:26:05 - 00:16:27:22
Cas Piancey
You think SBF is going to get off

00:16:27:22 - 00:16:31:17
Cas Piancey
fucking wake up, dude, There's not a chance in the world. I'll bet anyone

00:16:31:17 - 00:16:35:00
Cas Piancey
if you think he's not going to, if you think he's genuinely going to do no time,

00:16:35:00 - 00:16:47:22
Bennett Tomlin
But Cas, he donated to President Biden and was part of some vague conspiracy involving Zelensky. Details are spare, but I know he was involved.

00:16:47:22 - 00:16:57:07
Cas Piancey
Whatever. I just don't. It's so, it's so I'm so past it. And then and for me, the one thing I also want to emphasize here is how obviously failed

00:16:57:07 - 00:17:07:06
Cas Piancey
the cash cash bail bond mechanism is in general. Right. And I think proof of this is SBF, SBF gets $250 million

00:17:07:06 - 00:17:07:20
Cas Piancey
bail bond.

00:17:07:20 - 00:17:24:23
Cas Piancey
Obviously, the way it works, in case anyone's unfamiliar is you pay roughly 10% of that and you can get out if you don't have the money to pay for it yourself or the collateral to pay for itself for yourself. You can usually get a bail bondsman to take on that that collateral obligation for you partially. And then you have to pay back a loan on that obligation.

00:17:25:01 - 00:17:26:13
Cas Piancey
What did this accomplish?

00:17:26:13 - 00:17:33:13
Cas Piancey
Right. We have to reflect on this. What did it accomplish? He put up 200. They put up $250 million to get Sam Bankman-Fried out of detention.

00:17:33:13 - 00:17:34:06
Cas Piancey
Then

00:17:34:06 - 00:17:35:02
Cas Piancey
he goes out,

00:17:35:02 - 00:17:44:03
Cas Piancey
he starts spreading rumors, getting in touch with journalists. He's not supposed to breaking all the rules of the bail that he was given with this money and this collateral.

00:17:44:09 - 00:17:51:14
Cas Piancey
And now he's back in detention again. So it accomplished nothing. It allowed him to break some rules. And as you said, muddy the waters and make things more complex and weird.

00:17:51:14 - 00:18:00:15
Cas Piancey
Another individual who just got a big gigantic, I think the largest in history in terms of actually being paid for. Joe Lewis, who is the owner of

00:18:00:15 - 00:18:04:10
Cas Piancey
Tottenham Hotspur and the Albany, which is where

00:18:04:10 - 00:18:07:12
Cas Piancey
SBF was living when he got in trouble.

00:18:07:22 - 00:18:11:03
Cas Piancey
This guy just got in trouble, too, for insider trading and fraud,

00:18:11:03 - 00:18:13:13
Cas Piancey
and he put up a $300 million

00:18:13:13 - 00:18:17:01
Cas Piancey
bail with his yacht and private jet.

00:18:17:01 - 00:18:17:18
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah,

00:18:17:18 - 00:18:25:12
Cas Piancey
what do we think this is going to do? I mean, this guy's a billionaire. He can buy a new jet tomorrow. He can buy a new yacht tomorrow. It doesn't matter. He can go run away.

00:18:25:12 - 00:18:26:10
Cas Piancey
If he needs to.

00:18:26:10 - 00:18:31:15
Cas Piancey
Nothing is going to stop him from doing that. Right. Unless you put an ankle monitor around him,

00:18:31:15 - 00:18:42:08
Cas Piancey
you ensure that you're tracking him with GPS and satellite tracking, that you ensure that he isn't leaving the country. You take his passport, you there. There are protocols to ensure it, and none of it has to do with money.

00:18:42:08 - 00:18:47:13
Cas Piancey
We need to get rid of this cash bail bond system like immediately. It doesn't make any sense at all.

00:18:47:13 - 00:19:04:00
Bennett Tomlin
I strongly agree. I think the cash bail bond system is like one of the clearest examples in our criminal justice system of how we have codified a certain privilege for the most privileged right. That once you have money, you can avoid these things that others can't.

00:19:04:05 - 00:19:11:06
Bennett Tomlin
And as you're saying, the only real differentiator between these cases is whether or not you have money when you're accused of a crime.

00:19:11:06 - 00:19:13:09
Bennett Tomlin
that shouldn't be the goal of our system.

00:19:13:09 - 00:19:23:21
Bennett Tomlin
the platonic ideal of our legal system is one that treats like the most downtrodden, the most like wealthy and powerful as equal as you possibly can.

00:19:23:23 - 00:19:33:20
Bennett Tomlin
And like there's limits within reason of how far you can take that, perhaps. But like that's the ideal. And cash bail bond is just one example of where we don't even try to do that

00:19:33:20 - 00:19:38:19
Cas Piancey
Yeah, that's right. It's just an obvious advantage for rich people and really

00:19:38:19 - 00:19:41:12
Cas Piancey
no advantage for for anyone who

00:19:41:12 - 00:19:44:00
Cas Piancey
doesn't have the income to to deal with this kind of thing.

00:19:44:00 - 00:19:48:09
Cas Piancey
yeah, it's just a very gross, gross broken, broken system that needs fixing.

00:19:48:09 - 00:19:50:08
Bennett Tomlin
And if you listen to, like

00:19:50:08 - 00:19:53:00
Bennett Tomlin
testimony of certain convicts and stuff, like

00:19:53:00 - 00:20:06:08
Bennett Tomlin
when you are destitute, prosecutors in days have been accused of using that as leverage, basically because they know you're going back into whatever horrible detention facility you're in.

00:20:06:09 - 00:20:12:00
Bennett Tomlin
They know you're more desperate to strike a deal or to say whatever to do whatever, because you don't want to go back

00:20:12:00 - 00:20:13:16
Cas Piancey
Right. And to be clear, like, it's

00:20:13:16 - 00:20:28:18
Cas Piancey
one of the founding principles of our country is kind of this innocent until proven guilty, right. That you aren't going to be treated like you are guilty, even if everyone like, watched you do the crime. Like until we prove it in a court of law, you are innocent. And so

00:20:28:18 - 00:20:29:11
Cas Piancey
act like

00:20:29:11 - 00:20:30:18
Cas Piancey
reasonable bail

00:20:30:18 - 00:20:38:22
Cas Piancey
without having to pay an arm and a leg just seems like the right thing to do here as a country to follow our guiding principles.

00:20:39:04 - 00:20:52:20
Cas Piancey
Like maybe I'm shouting into the void here, but like this. It's just. It's just something I think is necessary for us to talk about in something I really do think can be fixed within our lifetime. Like I don't expect the entire penal system to get overturned. I hate the idea that private prisons

00:20:52:20 - 00:20:55:17
Cas Piancey
they exist like that. They aren't more heavily regulated. Like that's why there's so many people in

00:20:53:15 - 00:20:55:09
Bennett Tomlin
exist

00:20:58:06 - 00:21:03:06
Cas Piancey
Like that's why there's so many people in prison in our country. I have no doubt about that. But like,

00:21:03:06 - 00:21:06:01
Cas Piancey
if we're not going to change that anytime soon and we're not,

00:21:06:01 - 00:21:06:21
Cas Piancey
then

00:21:06:21 - 00:21:10:09
Cas Piancey
the least we can do is ensure that bail bond is working properly, that

00:21:10:09 - 00:21:13:22
Cas Piancey
prisoners are getting their medicine, that prisoners are getting the food that they need.

00:21:14:00 - 00:21:14:09
Cas Piancey
Like

00:21:14:09 - 00:21:17:14
Cas Piancey
obviously within reason, if somebody says I'm on an only

00:21:17:14 - 00:21:21:02
Cas Piancey
Wagyu steak diet or something, I understand being like, go fuck yourself.

00:21:21:02 - 00:21:28:13
Bennett Tomlin
Who's going to be the first indicted bitcoiner to argue that they have a moral conviction that requires them to have only red meat?

00:21:28:13 - 00:21:30:07
Cas Piancey
would think they would already be in there,

00:21:30:07 - 00:21:34:19
Cas Piancey
right? There's got to be a few dudes who are already in prison trying to argue that already.

00:21:34:19 - 00:21:35:14
Cas Piancey
that I don't fucking buy.

00:21:35:14 - 00:21:39:07
Cas Piancey
There's a limit. Limit to how even how far I will go in terms of my sympathy.

00:21:39:07 - 00:21:49:20
Cas Piancey
But yes, I do think we need to reform this stuff. SBF is a good jumping off point for that, so we thought it was worth talking about. Understand, some people are just going to be like, Why does this be like SBF isn't going to change this?

00:21:49:20 - 00:21:50:08
Cas Piancey
And it's like,

00:21:50:08 - 00:21:52:18
Cas Piancey
but we can make this

00:21:52:18 - 00:21:53:23
Cas Piancey
point of

00:21:53:23 - 00:21:55:22
Cas Piancey
of retention, of this information for,

00:21:55:22 - 00:21:58:13
Cas Piancey
everyone in crypto to be like, we need to change this.

00:21:58:13 - 00:22:05:19
Cas Piancey
a lot of people do focus on this stuff and they understand the corruptness of it in cryptocurrency and that's good. But a lot of people also don't

00:22:05:19 - 00:22:11:07
Cas Piancey
care about criminal reform and justice and the justice system, and I think it's probably time

00:22:11:07 - 00:22:14:03
Cas Piancey
to think about it because some of you are definitely going to go to prison.