Crypto Critics' Corner

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Episode 138 – Tweets, Trolls, and Superstars in the Sam Bankman-Fried Trial (feat. Katie Baker)

Tweets, Trolls, and Superstars in the Sam Bankman-Fried Trial (Feat. Katie Baker) – Crypto Critics' Corner

Bennett and Cas are joined by Katie Baker, a journalist at The Ringer, to discuss her time spent at the trial, how social media and sh*tposting are playing a role, and her most recent article, which encapsulates the story unfolding better than anything written thus far. Read Katie's article here: https://www.theringer.com/tech/2023/10/16/23919236/sam-bankman-fried-sbf-trial-caroline-ellison-testimony-ftx-cryptocurrency

Cas Piancey and Bennett Tomlin are joined by Katie Baker of Ringer to discuss the ongoing trial of Sam Bankman-Fried and the role of social media, the cultural significance of the trial, and the effectiveness of the prosecution.

This episode was recorded on October 23rd, 2023.

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English Transcript:

00:00:05:09 - 00:00:06:11
Cas Piancey
Welcome back, everyone.

00:00:06:11 - 00:00:12:22
Cas Piancey
I am Cas Piancey. I'm joined, as usual, by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett Tomlin. How are you today?

00:00:12:22 - 00:00:14:19
Bennett Tomlin
I'm doing pretty well. How are you, Cas?

00:00:14:19 - 00:00:27:09
Cas Piancey
I'm doing good. We're joined by a super special guest today, Katie Baker from the Ringer. She's been covering the Sam Bankman-Fried trial. Katie, welcome. It's a it's a pleasure to have you on the podcast.

00:00:27:09 - 00:00:35:17
Katie Baker
Thanks for having me. I was just talking about how I'm very happy to be here. I've been a fan of you guys for a while, so this is exciting

00:00:35:17 - 00:00:43:10
Cas Piancey
It's exciting for me, too, because you, we’ll put it in the show notes, but you did an article very recently.

00:00:43:11 - 00:00:51:22
Cas Piancey
Well, I guess it was a week ago now, but it's called Caroline Ellison was supposed to shock this SBF trial. Instead, the defense team has.

00:00:51:22 - 00:00:57:03
Cas Piancey
I think this is like the best article I've read about the Sam Bankman-Fried trial.

00:00:57:03 - 00:01:08:22
Cas Piancey
it makes you feel like you're in the courtroom. So I just recommend everyone go read the article because you feel like you're there and your like social media awareness, which

00:01:08:22 - 00:01:18:21
Cas Piancey
Bennett and I haven't gone into this in-depth a lot, but like, I think social media actually played a really significant role in this.

00:01:18:23 - 00:01:27:10
Cas Piancey
And you seem to have the pulse on that. And I'm just yeah, like, I'd love to pick your brain on that. I don't know where you'd want to start, but just like maybe,

00:01:27:10 - 00:01:37:10
Cas Piancey
maybe just your delve into Caroline's social media, reading the books that she's read and like all of that stuff, I'd love to hear your thoughts about that stuff.

00:01:37:10 - 00:01:52:14
Katie Baker
it's funny. It's like I'm thinking about it as you're talking, and I'm like, you know, I've always had a little bit of the degenerate in me is so I've always, you know, kind of followed like, what's going on, on whatever the kind of latest social media is.

00:01:52:14 - 00:01:53:01
Katie Baker
But

00:01:53:01 - 00:02:02:20
Katie Baker
like in the context of this case, I mean, I write for the Ringer, which is, you know, I've been sitting in the courtroom and people say, who are you here with? And I say, The ringer.

00:02:02:20 - 00:02:08:20
Katie Baker
And they either know it or they don't. And if they don't know it, I have to then say it's a sports and culture site.

00:02:08:20 - 00:02:16:06
Katie Baker
And here I am in a courtroom for a fraud, you know, a crypto fraud case. But to me,

00:02:16:06 - 00:02:25:08
Katie Baker
it is like a sports and a culture and a finance and a politics and a tech story. And I'm kind of trying to cover it in that way. And to me,

00:02:25:08 - 00:02:26:18
Katie Baker
it's all those things.

00:02:26:18 - 00:02:36:09
Katie Baker
and you know, and I've always been someone who's been like extremely online, permanently online ever since I was a teenager moderating IRC chats in the nineties.

00:02:36:09 - 00:02:38:23
Katie Baker
and before I was a journalist I worked in finance and

00:02:38:23 - 00:02:45:13
Katie Baker
did that kind of during the rise and fall of the you know, the pre and post global financial crisis. So

00:02:45:13 - 00:02:57:17
Katie Baker
I love I love fraud, I love charlatans but like I do, I mean not to say that but I've been it's been you know in my kind of career which has changed here and there.

00:02:57:19 - 00:03:08:19
Katie Baker
It's been interesting just to see, you know, whether it's sports or entertainment or whatever I'm covering, like to see the the characters and the people who convince people to give them a lot of money. And

00:03:08:19 - 00:03:16:05
Katie Baker
you know, just when you think like there can't possibly be like a new, weird fraud character that supersedes this, this last one.

00:03:16:06 - 00:03:21:06
Katie Baker
Like, there's always someone and this is the latest someone. And so that's how I'm kind of approaching this.

00:03:21:06 - 00:03:26:16
Bennett Tomlin
There always being another fraud. Someone is, I think, what keeps this podcast going,

00:03:26:16 - 00:03:49:19
Katie Baker
I mean, like, honestly, you guys have so many of these, like, micro characters and I say micro and it's like to the tune of like, you know, imagined and real and sometimes invested of billions in this space, which has been so funny about covering this trial, the ease with which they're switching between M little M's and double M's and B is and Big B is.

00:03:49:19 - 00:03:54:04
Katie Baker
And you know, talking about sums of money like they always have to explain to the jury, like

00:03:54:04 - 00:04:08:04
Katie Baker
this looks like it says $1,000 but that means $1,000,000,000, you know just like the way they keep these spreadsheets are very round numbers. And so that's kind of funny to see. Like they're not just funny, but like very telling of the case,

00:04:08:04 - 00:04:16:02
Cas Piancey
it feels apt that you're covering it as like a cultural, you know, event because as, as you, as you said, it's,

00:04:16:02 - 00:04:18:20
Cas Piancey
it is like a new fraud, but it's also

00:04:18:20 - 00:04:29:14
Cas Piancey
a huge, massive fraud. It's gambling, it's international. It's like it's all of these things at once.

00:04:29:14 - 00:04:30:09
Cas Piancey
And

00:04:30:09 - 00:04:37:06
Cas Piancey
it's crazy to me how much of this is like on Twitter or like, you know, you guys are you were like going through her Tumblr

00:04:37:06 - 00:04:49:17
Cas Piancey
I guess we're into a new time, you know, like this didn't happen with Bernie Madoff. This didn't happen in the 08 crisis. People were not hunting on Twitter to find what someone said about.

00:04:49:19 - 00:04:53:12
Cas Piancey
I don't know, mortgage backed securities that wasn't happening.

00:04:53:12 - 00:04:57:09
Bennett Tomlin
because there's a scoop in there. If you find Ben Bernanke's Tumblr,

00:04:57:09 - 00:04:59:16
Cas Piancey
I'm okay.

00:04:59:16 - 00:05:12:02
Katie Baker
we got a fabulous fab email here too. But, but no, I totally, I totally know. You mean like I mean that's what has always been so interesting. I mean about all of this Sam in particular. But

00:05:12:02 - 00:05:14:13
Katie Baker
in the article I wrote about Caroline, like

00:05:14:13 - 00:05:17:07
Katie Baker
you look at Caroline's social media presence and

00:05:17:07 - 00:05:19:09
Katie Baker
you can just kind of trace her,

00:05:19:09 - 00:05:20:07
Katie Baker
you know,

00:05:20:07 - 00:05:21:11
Katie Baker
her trajectory.

00:05:21:11 - 00:05:26:07
Katie Baker
You can kind of see her as the person that she became and was and

00:05:26:07 - 00:05:39:16
Katie Baker
who she met and who she like was crushing on. And, you know, and and what weird and and also to her, like compelling theories, she was like getting excited about And so

00:05:39:16 - 00:05:44:14
Katie Baker
that was interesting to read it. Also honestly, I went back and read this you know she quoted from this

00:05:44:14 - 00:05:51:00
Katie Baker
book called The Reminiscences of a Stock Operator that was written in like, I think I want to say 1923

00:05:51:00 - 00:05:52:02
Katie Baker
100 years ago.

00:05:52:02 - 00:06:00:10
Katie Baker
so it's a century old. But when you read it, it's like reading Liar's Poker by Michael Lewis, who's another character in all of this. It's very contemporary feeling. It's

00:06:00:10 - 00:06:01:07
Bennett Tomlin
What has been like

00:06:01:07 - 00:06:03:04
Bennett Tomlin
the most telling moment or

00:06:03:04 - 00:06:06:21
Bennett Tomlin
most impactful takeaway from your time in the courtroom so far?

00:06:06:21 - 00:06:11:04
Katie Baker
I think it's honestly been seeing the way the prosecution has

00:06:11:04 - 00:06:13:21
Katie Baker
a crafted a very

00:06:13:21 - 00:06:14:16
Katie Baker
elegant

00:06:14:16 - 00:06:18:02
Katie Baker
narrative, which I it's actually been kind of

00:06:18:02 - 00:06:20:15
Katie Baker
inspiring as a writer.

00:06:20:17 - 00:06:35:02
Katie Baker
I'm not someone that thinks a lot about like tries not to think too much about like that. The bricks and bones of things because I'll I'll go crazier than I already go when I'm writing. But it's actually been kind of motivating to see the way that they

00:06:35:02 - 00:06:37:23
Katie Baker
kind of drop things in early on, don't really,

00:06:37:23 - 00:06:42:19
Katie Baker
beat anyone over the head with it and then return to it later and you're like, I remember hearing about that guy or that

00:06:42:19 - 00:06:44:09
Katie Baker
entity or whatever it is.

00:06:44:09 - 00:06:45:06
Katie Baker
And

00:06:45:06 - 00:06:48:02
Katie Baker
I think like a good example of that is,

00:06:48:02 - 00:06:53:07
Katie Baker
this is a crypto story and a lot of the jurors aren't exactly people that are well versed in crypto,

00:06:53:07 - 00:06:54:19
Katie Baker
but they've kind of like

00:06:54:19 - 00:06:57:02
Katie Baker
shown how this is just a

00:06:57:02 - 00:07:00:20
Katie Baker
this isn't just a crypto crime. Like this is just a tale as old as time

00:07:00:20 - 00:07:06:20
Katie Baker
kind of old school money is coming in on one side and going out the other side and it's not supposed to.

00:07:06:20 - 00:07:08:16
Katie Baker
And they've done such a good job of like

00:07:08:16 - 00:07:12:02
Katie Baker
showing that while not like speaking down to the jury and still

00:07:12:02 - 00:07:21:21
Katie Baker
incorporating a lot of the complicated aspects and stopping to explain those things to them, but also stopping to explain simple concepts. And I think they really just like honored the jury

00:07:21:21 - 00:07:24:04
Katie Baker
in a way that I'm sure the jury feels that they

00:07:24:04 - 00:07:26:11
Katie Baker
have gotten a lot of the important information.

00:07:26:11 - 00:07:32:06
Katie Baker
So but yeah, I mean, so I know you had Danny on and he was talking about,

00:07:32:06 - 00:07:40:02
Katie Baker
the Australian Santa Clause, forensic auditor, professor Guy, the expert witness, they had.

00:07:40:02 - 00:07:43:16
Katie Baker
going into it, I thought to myself like this might be kind of a tedious

00:07:43:16 - 00:07:44:15
Katie Baker
bit of testimony.

00:07:44:15 - 00:08:04:08
Katie Baker
It's a lot of like when you hear forensic accounting. But the it was like a very simple PowerPoint with arrows and we had already heard about all these entities and all these payments that we saw had already come up like we already knew K5. So then you see the volume of transactions going to K5. And I just think about the jurors seeing that and

00:08:04:08 - 00:08:08:03
Katie Baker
they can have a little lightbulb moment in their head the same way I did sitting there like

00:08:08:03 - 00:08:11:17
Katie Baker
that same guy, the Kim Kardashian relationship broker.

00:08:11:19 - 00:08:12:21
Katie Baker
They're giving him like,

00:08:12:21 - 00:08:14:06
Katie Baker
increasing to $1,000,000,000.

00:08:14:06 - 00:08:18:07
Katie Baker
but that's what really stuck out to me is how they've like woven things in very expertly.

00:08:18:07 - 00:08:35:09
Cas Piancey
I think you're right, because I've mentioned I think in a review I did of Zeke Faux's book number go up, I mentioned how he does a really good job of explaining it. He's mostly explaining scams and frauds and stuff like that. He's not

00:08:35:09 - 00:08:38:21
Cas Piancey
he doesn't delve into like, here's how Bitcoin works or something, right?

00:08:38:22 - 00:08:42:20
Cas Piancey
Like, he's he doesn't bother doing that. That's not the point of his book.

00:08:42:20 - 00:08:44:10
Cas Piancey
so like on cryptocurrency Twitter

00:08:44:10 - 00:08:51:17
Cas Piancey
There's so many people who are like why weren't they talking about tether or why aren't they talking about this exchange or this person or this?

00:08:51:17 - 00:08:58:14
Cas Piancey
And I'm like, Well, they don't have to. There's no need to bring in like a bunch of complicated shit.

00:08:58:14 - 00:09:08:04
Cas Piancey
Bennett and I started this podcast and it took us 3 hours to try to explain tether to no one. Like, that's not even to a jury like I.

00:09:08:04 - 00:09:22:21
Cas Piancey
So I, I think you're right that it's not, it's not even dumbing it down. It's just being respectful and saying like, okay, we're focusing on the fraud part of this. And that is not that has nothing to do with decentralization or immutable ledgers or whatever.

00:09:22:21 - 00:09:23:13
Katie Baker
exactly.

00:09:23:13 - 00:09:37:19
Katie Baker
You could like imagine the prosecution that confuses the jury so much by being like and then the blockchain is and it's like, no, it doesn't, you know, it like it's very simple, it's very old, it's very something you've seen before, something we all know.

00:09:37:19 - 00:09:41:06
Katie Baker
And the judge has been kind of the proxy of that like he's been.

00:09:41:08 - 00:09:59:20
Katie Baker
I noticed that sometimes he asked questions in terms of like, so it's like a car loan. And, you know, so he like, he puts it into terms where it's like, it doesn't matter that this is Genesis lending to, you know, like you don't don't do worry about that. It's a car loan, it's a depreciating asset. You know, it's a you know, whatever it is.

00:09:59:20 - 00:10:00:12
Katie Baker
And so

00:10:00:12 - 00:10:05:03
Katie Baker
that's been like kind of my biggest takeaway that I think prosecutions are very effective on that front.

00:10:05:03 - 00:10:14:07
Bennett Tomlin
you mentioned K-5 there. Could you talk a little bit about what K5 is and what Sam Bankman-Fried’s relationship with this firm was?

00:10:14:07 - 00:10:19:04
Katie Baker
I think it was in Nishad’s testimony, I could be wrong about when it was first introduced, but it was,

00:10:19:04 - 00:10:22:12
Katie Baker
importance to Sam of these kind of relationship brokers.

00:10:22:12 - 00:10:28:03
Katie Baker
And you know, something that I've noticed the prosecution doing throughout is that

00:10:28:03 - 00:10:33:01
Katie Baker
they never miss an opportunity to show the extent to which

00:10:33:01 - 00:10:40:13
Katie Baker
FTX and Sam were in like the popular imagination and sightlines

00:10:40:13 - 00:10:42:18
Katie Baker
they show him on Good Morning America

00:10:42:18 - 00:10:44:01
Katie Baker
sort of put things on the record.

00:10:44:01 - 00:10:44:11
Katie Baker
So,

00:10:44:11 - 00:10:52:16
Katie Baker
they want to introduce the fact that Shaquille O'Neal tweeted in terms of FTX. And so you've got this prosecutor standing there saying,

00:10:52:16 - 00:10:59:03
Katie Baker
who is Shaq to the. And then it's kind of, you know, Shaquille O'Neal is an NBA player. But

00:10:59:03 - 00:11:02:09
Katie Baker
Sam was very excited about this new relationship he had

00:11:02:09 - 00:11:04:20
Katie Baker
with K5 and the relationship brokers behind it.

00:11:04:20 - 00:11:08:04
Katie Baker
Who are these kind of Hollywood power players? And he had been to an event

00:11:08:04 - 00:11:10:23
Katie Baker
and he wrote an e-mail very excited about,

00:11:10:23 - 00:11:16:21
Katie Baker
I think, Kim Kardashian. It was funny reading the list of things and seeing who he was, like excited about

00:11:16:21 - 00:11:23:00
Katie Baker
he was like, I bet if I gave him, you know, 12 hours I could get a dinner with. It was like

00:11:23:00 - 00:11:33:22
Katie Baker
Elon Musk, Kim Kardashian, and it was like his or Rihanna was on it. It was like Elon Musk, Rihanna, and like two other people. It was like his idea of, like the hardest to get for people in the world.

00:11:33:22 - 00:11:41:03
Katie Baker
So to him, he was then wanting to invest in it to the tune of $1,000,000,000 and was kind of in the process of

00:11:41:03 - 00:11:42:19
Katie Baker
ramping up in that investment,

00:11:42:19 - 00:11:53:02
Katie Baker
this sort of joint venture. I was looking at some of the SPVs that K5 had, and it's kind of a murderer's row of a lot of that. You know, the

00:11:53:02 - 00:11:56:22
Katie Baker
the high tech companies of that era that he wanted to be involved with.

00:11:56:22 - 00:11:57:14
Katie Baker
And so

00:11:57:14 - 00:12:00:02
Katie Baker
it was just, you know, to the jury, it was just another

00:12:00:02 - 00:12:06:09
Katie Baker
story about how he was trying to become like a power player beyond just the crypto sphere.

00:12:06:09 - 00:12:16:18
Bennett Tomlin
And Kate, you mentioned Shaq there, K5 also introduced him, I believe, to Larry David, who is obviously in their famous Super Bowl ad and I believe Tom Brady as well.

00:12:16:18 - 00:12:32:01
Bennett Tomlin
So several of like these key figures who are out there like putting FTX in the minds of people who aren't hosting cryptocurrency podcasts. K5 was important. and up. Bill Clinton and Tony Blair, I think came through K5 eventually to

00:12:32:01 - 00:12:34:14
Katie Baker
Clintons were definitely adjacent to all this, too. Yeah,

00:12:34:14 - 00:12:35:16
Bennett Tomlin
Yeah, and

00:12:35:16 - 00:12:42:14
Bennett Tomlin
Clinton and Blair eventually came down to Scaramucci and Bankman-Fried. Crypto Bahamas conference where they were speakers.

00:12:42:14 - 00:12:48:14
Katie Baker
yeah. And scary movies like what I was started seeing earlier and interrupted my own self as usual.

00:12:48:14 - 00:12:49:13
Katie Baker
But like

00:12:49:13 - 00:13:07:15
Katie Baker
even when they were doing like phone records and they had to kind of do the nitty gritty of like asking this FBI phone analysis like, what was he doing on this date? And the reason they're doing that is basically to establish jurisdiction for why the Southern District of New York is trying this case. So it's you know, it's kind of just

00:13:07:15 - 00:13:08:23
Katie Baker
the procedural kind of thing.

00:13:08:23 - 00:13:14:15
Katie Baker
But they don't miss an opportunity to tie each location to an email or a

00:13:14:15 - 00:13:20:08
Katie Baker
Slack message or a theme about like a social engagement that Sam had.

00:13:20:08 - 00:13:23:08
Katie Baker
And it was so funny how they did it, because I noticed it was like

00:13:23:08 - 00:13:29:05
Katie Baker
started with, like businesses, services we've heard of. Then suddenly it was like, you know, I forgot like a celebrity.

00:13:29:05 - 00:13:42:16
Katie Baker
And then I was like, Eric, Like the mayor, Eric Adams. Of course, then it was the governor, then it was for President Clinton. And, you know, and that it's like a, you know, some kind of minister of Saudi

00:13:42:16 - 00:13:51:20
Katie Baker
investment asking for an internship for his son like it was ever thought, like no matter how high you get, no matter what circles are and like someone said, needs an internship.

00:13:51:20 - 00:14:10:12
Katie Baker
So that was you know, they've kind of done that same thing throughout. Like that's kind of how they even got, you know, the Kelsey Piper conversation into evidence was like kind of in a similar way. It was in the context of like, how does Twitter work? And then they sort of built into that

00:14:10:12 - 00:14:21:23
Cas Piancey
the moment that I ended up reaching out to you to come on the show was you, you were replying I there's no need to name names, you were replying to someone

00:14:21:23 - 00:14:23:23
Cas Piancey
an acquaintance and friend of Ben and I

00:14:23:23 - 00:14:33:18
Cas Piancey
had a tweet that was entered into, into evidence and you were letting him know like, hey, you were entered into evidence today in the trial.

00:14:33:18 - 00:14:54:13
Cas Piancey
And he was like, which tweet? And it was something about he was being sarcastic and trolling and saying something about adding more funds into his account as everything was collapsing. And I and tell me if I'm getting this wrong. But I believe it was entered into evidence because Sam liked that tweet.

00:14:54:13 - 00:14:59:20
Katie Baker
a long story short, yeah, I was sitting in in the courtroom

00:14:59:20 - 00:15:16:05
Katie Baker
and I see, yeah, someone I know on Twitter to via, you know, a shitposter and it's it's a tweet that's kind of like playing into the it was during the collapse and he's like, you know, I'm paraphrasing, but it's very like steady labs like I'm

00:15:16:10 - 00:15:21:03
Katie Baker
I'm adding more funds, you know what I mean? Like, I know I'm mixing mixing

00:15:21:03 - 00:15:25:10
Cas Piancey
it was basically it was basically re quoting Do Kwon.

00:15:25:10 - 00:15:28:15
Cas Piancey
Yes, you're right. Yes. That's what that's exactly what it was.

00:15:28:15 - 00:15:38:13
Katie Baker
the that was the gist of it. And SBF liked it. And the in the context of why it was why it was entered into evidence, they were sort of using it as an example of

00:15:38:13 - 00:15:45:04
Katie Baker
what does it look like when SBF likes a tweet? What does it mean to like a tweet, like they were interviewing? I think like a

00:15:45:06 - 00:16:03:01
Katie Baker
If it was a Twitter, I think it was a Southern District of New York employee who is in on the social media team who, you know, extracts the forensic analysis. It's like I'm like, same you know, you and me both got like Mr..

00:16:03:01 - 00:16:09:04
Katie Baker
yeah. So that was why the tweet was in evidence. But they never miss an opportunity to show something that the jury is going to see.

00:16:09:04 - 00:16:11:08
Katie Baker
And maybe they'll remember that

00:16:11:08 - 00:16:15:22
Katie Baker
in their mind someone opened an account. But it's not like they had to prove that this was like,

00:16:15:22 - 00:16:17:04
Cas Piancey
Real.

00:16:17:04 - 00:16:25:14
Katie Baker
it's not entered for the truth. It's entered for the state of Yeah. Mind, which, you know, my first day in court, I had to turn to someone to be like, What does it mean when they say this all the time?

00:16:25:18 - 00:16:26:19
Katie Baker
You know, I'm a

00:16:26:19 - 00:16:35:22
Katie Baker
novice in court, just like anyone, and I've gotten very familiar with that. But it's interesting, like kind of to see how that works and what can and can't go into evidence and

00:16:35:22 - 00:16:46:07
Katie Baker
but yeah, so that tweet kind of was an example of that. And it was very funny when the tweeter found out he was now, you know, entered into the record.

00:16:46:07 - 00:16:49:09
Cas Piancey
Bennett's been entered into and like, you know, a bunch of.

00:16:54:13 - 00:16:56:11
Bennett Tomlin
Yes, I believe so.

00:16:56:11 - 00:17:06:09
Cas Piancey
it's interesting to me how it's it's like this trial spans both the celebrity world and this, like, exclusive, you know, billionaires

00:17:06:09 - 00:17:08:06
Cas Piancey
club and all the all this

00:17:08:06 - 00:17:11:21
Cas Piancey
crazy shit that we think is real and I guess is real, you know, that.

00:17:11:23 - 00:17:27:11
Cas Piancey
That kind of stuff. And then meanwhile, it's also just Twitter that we're all on and interacting with and seeing the same stupid posts and it's getting entered into evidence. It's it's wildly weird. It just is such a weird sensation. And then reading your article,

00:17:27:11 - 00:17:32:08
Cas Piancey
it just feels like it's really weird to be in the courtroom to like the energy feels weird.

00:17:32:08 - 00:17:43:10
Cas Piancey
It sounds like everything is odd all the time and a little off. Like, can you can you give me a sense of of the courtroom? I just I yeah, I appreciated your the script description.

00:17:43:12 - 00:17:46:11
Katie Baker
sometimes I wonder like am I reading too much into.

00:17:46:11 - 00:17:49:14
Katie Baker
I think the jury yawned at this moment, but

00:17:49:14 - 00:17:58:16
Katie Baker
me like and when I was pitching this to my editors and kind of explaining how I would want to cover this, I was like, to me, this is like covering like a sporting event.

00:17:58:16 - 00:18:11:11
Katie Baker
And I don't say that to diminish it, but it's it's kind of like, you know, you're capturing like the swings of emotion and the people involved and the fact that it's humans and

00:18:11:11 - 00:18:19:03
Katie Baker
just when you think that you can, like, bet on what's going to happen, like some something comes out of the woodwork, does something strange. And

00:18:19:03 - 00:18:22:06
Katie Baker
so I think like I've felt it most when

00:18:22:06 - 00:18:23:11
Katie Baker
two of the cross-examinations.

00:18:23:11 - 00:18:29:18
Katie Baker
So like I thought Caroline's cross-examination, they just like, weren't landing anything and you could just look around and look at the jury and,

00:18:29:18 - 00:18:39:04
Katie Baker
it just was easy to see that even when they would sort of try it, like there was a few times when they tried to sort of bring up the like the you wanted to crush the competition.

00:18:39:04 - 00:18:39:18
Katie Baker
And they're

00:18:39:18 - 00:18:46:23
Katie Baker
implicitly referencing like another of Sam's, like one time girlfriends. But the jury doesn't know that. And they didn't, like ever say that.

00:18:46:23 - 00:18:54:11
Katie Baker
So you could, like, watch those things just not just sort of wither on the vine and you could just feel it. You could just watch the jurors like looking around.

00:18:54:11 - 00:18:58:04
Katie Baker
And then there's other times when you can see them looking back and forth.

00:18:58:04 - 00:19:03:13
Katie Baker
And I thought Nishad's cross testimony was a time when the defense actually was,

00:19:03:13 - 00:19:23:06
Katie Baker
you know, doing a good job of like, I don't know, just, you know, nudging him like in a way that I thought they were going to do to Caroline more just getting under his skin, kind of making him look a lil squirmy. He's obviously of the three kind of inner circle people that testified to me was the most

00:19:23:06 - 00:19:24:10
Katie Baker
emotional guy.

00:19:24:10 - 00:19:28:04
Katie Baker
And that was clear through all of his testimony, direct and otherwise. But,

00:19:28:04 - 00:19:30:14
Katie Baker
they dug into that a little bit, and

00:19:30:14 - 00:19:34:05
Katie Baker
I don't think they undermined anything that he said. But

00:19:34:05 - 00:19:37:21
Katie Baker
I think you could just see the difference in like what was successful

00:19:37:21 - 00:19:46:09
Katie Baker
just in watching the jury kind of be enlivened by it and going back and forth like the volley of it versus just being like,

00:19:46:09 - 00:19:49:14
Katie Baker
what are they talking about FTX fiat account like

00:19:49:14 - 00:19:53:13
Katie Baker
nomenclature, like, I mean, that's like what the Caroline’s cross was is very strange.

00:19:53:13 - 00:20:00:10
Cas Piancey
there's a moment in your article that you described and no one else I don't remember anyone else describing this, especially the way you did, which was

00:20:00:10 - 00:20:05:14
Cas Piancey
They first go. Can you point to Sam Bankman-Fried? And she's like, Yes.

00:20:05:18 - 00:20:13:18
Cas Piancey
And then she starts looking for him and can't find him. And they're like, You can stand up if you can't see him. And so she stands up and she still can't see him.

00:20:13:18 - 00:20:22:01
Cas Piancey
I know you didn't say this in the article, but in my mind I'm just like, I'm thinking like a juror or maybe just maybe just a normal human being and going like,

00:20:22:01 - 00:20:23:14
Cas Piancey
why can't you find him?

00:20:23:14 - 00:20:29:20
Cas Piancey
And I get in your article you mention, like, he was in a weird spot in the courtroom and stuff, but like and he had a new haircut.

00:20:29:20 - 00:20:42:17
Cas Piancey
But still, you're like, how familiar are familiar? Are you with this guy If you can't spot him like he was your boss for over a year, like, Well, why can't you find this guy in the court?

00:20:42:22 - 00:20:59:02
Cas Piancey
And you're just like, get find him, You know, like, what is going on? You know, like in those moments, I'm just wondering if. Yeah. Do you have any other moments like that too? Like where you're just like on pins and needles or frustrated or like, you can just sense it in the courtroom?

00:20:59:02 - 00:21:12:09
Katie Baker
I was kind of like looking forward to that moment because I was asking other, I was like, Wait, do they really have to like, you know, you see that there's things you see on TV and that was one of them. Like, wow, you really do stand in point.

00:21:12:11 - 00:21:16:21
Katie Baker
And yes, she couldn't find him. And then right after that, which I actually think

00:21:16:21 - 00:21:25:00
Katie Baker
settled the tension in the room, they were like, what's he wearing? Like, they have to say what he's wearing. And you could tell she didn't know. Like how like

00:21:25:00 - 00:21:29:01
Katie Baker
that. That's how the thing so many of these people testifying are such literal people.

00:21:29:01 - 00:21:44:12
Katie Baker
And it's been very funny to like, hear their answers to things. But she goes “a suit?” and you could see the jurors chuckling and you're like, okay, here we go. And now we begin on that note, which is probably actually the right note.

00:21:44:12 - 00:21:48:17
Katie Baker
I mean, a lot of the very like major moments in the court have been

00:21:48:17 - 00:21:49:14
Katie Baker
judge related.

00:21:49:14 - 00:21:55:04
Katie Baker
He's very you've been very vocal, you know, and I'd say on both sides, he's definitely kind of

00:21:55:04 - 00:22:13:02
Katie Baker
you know, he nips at the prosecution from time to time, but he really he really wrecks the defense and to a point where sometimes you can see the jurors feel like they're almost in on the joke, like this defense to my right, like these guys again.

00:22:13:04 - 00:22:23:08
Katie Baker
And he's kind of cultivated this mood in the courtroom that's sort of like these chuckleheads need to get their act together a little bit. And and I

00:22:23:08 - 00:22:40:08
Katie Baker
I feel like that's true to say like I don't want to accuse him of being like one sided because I don't think he is I think he's just reacting to different calibers of preparation for the case and, you know, different calibers of like what they have to prepare the case with.

00:22:40:09 - 00:22:42:00
Katie Baker
sometimes, I think to myself, like the

00:22:42:00 - 00:22:44:02
Katie Baker
defense only has so much

00:22:44:02 - 00:22:47:01
Cas Piancey
Well, they have a million pages of discovery or whatever, but

00:22:47:01 - 00:23:02:14
Cas Piancey
your points taken. And it's interesting to me because I don't then it's too young for this. And I'll I'll assume you're too young for this, too. But as a child, I'm going to date myself here. But as as a as a child, I do recall my mom was obsessed with the O.J. trial.

00:23:02:16 - 00:23:03:15
Cas Piancey
And so

00:23:03:15 - 00:23:13:20
Cas Piancey
constantly I would hear it like and it was played live. I don't even understand exactly how like, it wasn't I guess it was a state case, Right? So it wasn't a federal case.

00:23:13:20 - 00:23:27:22
Cas Piancey
So they were playing it live and it was this huge media event. And I actually distinctly remember everyone talking about a judge. His name was Judge Ito and him being this like, yeah, Lance Ito.

00:23:27:22 - 00:23:38:04
Cas Piancey
Exactly. And he was like a huge personality in this trial. And for like all the wrong reasons. Like everyone

00:23:38:04 - 00:23:54:00
Cas Piancey
hated that he it he was a spectacle because he knew that it was being broadcast across the world and stuff. And I think what's really refreshing to me about Judge Kaplan is that it's like this isn't being broadcast.

00:23:54:02 - 00:24:11:04
Cas Piancey
This is it might be a big trial and the media is there or whatever. But like this guy is not saying this stuff because he wants the whole public to see it and he can get a TV show out of it or something like, you know, that this is him being like, What are you guys doing? Or what?

00:24:11:06 - 00:24:26:00
Cas Piancey
Like he's he's like an old cranky man. That's not that doesn't like what these lawyers are doing with their repetition. And they're they're at the one I don't know if I mentioned this in the Danny episode, I think I did, but he said something about like,

00:24:26:00 - 00:24:28:17
Cas Piancey
some people won't be alive in 10 minutes. And I'm just like,

00:24:28:17 - 00:24:37:09
Katie Baker
The other day, like he was getting mad about, you know, they brought this guy from Texas who was like, worked at Google basically to establish that

00:24:37:09 - 00:24:40:14
Katie Baker
this is the metadata and this is the

00:24:40:14 - 00:24:46:00
Katie Baker
it shows Caroline Nelson access the document and thank me for your access document.

00:24:46:00 - 00:24:48:01
Katie Baker
And that was it. That was like the whole reason he was there.

00:24:48:01 - 00:24:51:07
Katie Baker
And the judge was like, why wasn't this just like a fact that was

00:24:51:07 - 00:25:00:17
Katie Baker
agreed upon as like, why did we have to testify to this? And at one point he said, and this is he sends a jury out of the room when he was doing this kind of admonishment.

00:25:00:17 - 00:25:03:03
Katie Baker
But he said at one point, this is a crime.

00:25:03:03 - 00:25:08:04
Katie Baker
And then he was like, not as big as the crime in question, but like a crime nevertheless.

00:25:08:04 - 00:25:20:16
Katie Baker
he's been a very big factor in the case. And I mean, I think early on the I think like in the very, very first stages, the case was assigned to a different judge who recused herself because her husband worked for a firm that had worked with a fixer.

00:25:20:16 - 00:25:26:21
Katie Baker
I mean, I forget the exact connection, but just to think about how different of a case it might have been or

00:25:26:21 - 00:25:36:02
Katie Baker
not to make another sports analogy, but in the same way where when I first covered a basketball game and team, I remember being very like, wow,

00:25:36:02 - 00:25:38:01
Katie Baker
the agents kind of run all this shit.

00:25:38:01 - 00:25:41:08
Katie Baker
Like in a way that I guess I knew, but I didn't really know.

00:25:41:08 - 00:25:49:18
Katie Baker
It's all about the agents. And like when you meet all this, the beat writers, all they care about is talking to the agents and what the agent said. And I feel like it's kind of like that with the judge, like,

00:25:49:18 - 00:25:58:11
Katie Baker
of course, I, I know that a judge runs the courtroom, but like to really see it in action, to see how much they are the liaison to the jury.

00:25:58:11 - 00:26:06:08
Katie Baker
And they can shut things down so fast or they can allow things. And that's been really interesting in this case.

00:26:06:08 - 00:26:17:09
Katie Baker
And, you know, and also he's going to be the guy that sends and says, I think Caroline and Gary and Nishad So it's been interesting to think about how he's reacted to those three people,

00:26:17:09 - 00:26:23:04
Cas Piancey
I'm interested to hear your take on this. I keep bringing up Liz Lopatto in every single episode.

00:26:23:04 - 00:26:26:03
Katie Baker
you should, like she’s the best like read her stuff at the Verge.

00:26:26:08 - 00:26:26:21
Katie Baker
Good.

00:26:26:21 - 00:26:36:23
Cas Piancey
I also recommend every single article that she's written about the trial. It's been very, very, very good. And usually quite, quite interesting in terms of she has a take that

00:26:36:23 - 00:26:40:16
Cas Piancey
people aren't necessarily aware of until she writes it down, which I think is really cool.

00:26:40:16 - 00:26:45:00
Cas Piancey
But she mentioned that one of the prosecutors, I believe it's

00:26:45:00 - 00:26:46:06
Cas Piancey
Danielle Sassoon,

00:26:46:06 - 00:26:53:08
Cas Piancey
so? She said she's like super intimidating and that

00:26:53:08 - 00:26:54:03
Cas Piancey
she's

00:26:54:03 - 00:27:03:11
Cas Piancey
very interested in SBF taking the stand because she's interested in how these prosecutors are going to deal with

00:27:03:11 - 00:27:07:19
Cas Piancey
him and how he's going to react to that. I'm wondering what you're thinking about that.

00:27:07:19 - 00:27:15:04
Cas Piancey
Like, I know everybody's like, fireworks. But I'm like, what do you what? Like, okay, fireworks. But like, what do you actually what do you actually expect to hear?

00:27:15:04 - 00:27:16:00
Katie Baker
you know, they have

00:27:16:00 - 00:27:17:05
Katie Baker
a multitude of

00:27:17:05 - 00:27:25:17
Katie Baker
prosecutors who have been kind of taking turns, but I'd say they're sort of two lead ones, Nicholas Roos and then Danielle Sassoon,

00:27:25:17 - 00:27:46:05
Katie Baker
they've gotten sort of the biggest assignments Danielle did, Caroline Ellison, which I thought was just obviously like, you know, this is a jury with I think the jury itself is nine women and three men, and then they have six alternates who are probably a little bit more like three more men and three women, maybe, you know, give or take.

00:27:46:05 - 00:27:46:14
Katie Baker
But,

00:27:46:14 - 00:27:52:20
Katie Baker
we were thinking about if Sam testifies, who would do the cross-examination. And I think it could be

00:27:52:20 - 00:27:54:23
Katie Baker
smart to have Danielle do it because she's

00:27:54:23 - 00:27:56:18
Katie Baker
quick. But she's also just

00:27:56:18 - 00:27:59:11
Katie Baker
she was able to remain really calm. I feel like

00:27:59:11 - 00:28:04:23
Katie Baker
Roos gets a little sarcastic, like not in a bad way, but I could see if it was him and Sam.

00:28:04:23 - 00:28:10:01
Katie Baker
It could get a little bit testy. I think just even seeing the way that

00:28:10:01 - 00:28:35:12
Katie Baker
that Danielle Sassoon handles objections and, you know, Mark Cohen is kind of always, you know, trying to trip her up and she's just very cool and collected. I feel like she's got a good little winking rapport with the jury, like when I think it was Can Sun was saying that he was telling Sam all these, you know, options or kind of that he didn't have that many options.

00:28:35:12 - 00:28:38:10
Katie Baker
And they said, What is Sam saying? He said, Yep, yep. And she said,

00:28:38:10 - 00:28:48:16
Katie Baker
When you say, yep, yep, are you saying that's what he said? And the jury all laughed like it's one of those things that in the transcript probably wouldn't like read as much. But it was this very

00:28:48:16 - 00:28:54:13
Katie Baker
I don't know it this moment in the courtroom where you just felt like the jury was locked into what she was saying and she was had this connection with them.

00:28:54:13 - 00:28:54:23
Katie Baker
And

00:28:54:23 - 00:28:57:23
Katie Baker
it was illustrative of Sam's kind of demeanor.

00:28:57:23 - 00:29:04:13
Katie Baker
But yeah, so I'm interested to see who they would choose to cross Sam. I think she could be effective because I could see him,

00:29:04:13 - 00:29:06:21
Katie Baker
if he were to be condescending to anyone,

00:29:06:21 - 00:29:16:07
Katie Baker
it might play worse if he is condescending to her versus I could see him and Roos kind of almost being at too much of like the same wavelength, you know what I'm saying?

00:29:16:07 - 00:29:35:06
Cas Piancey
I had the opportunity to interview Sam about 3 hours before he got arrested in the Bahamas. And, and I will say that I was not calm and collected and, like, and fair and balanced.

00:29:35:06 - 00:29:54:16
Cas Piancey
I'm like, I'll just undermine his argument with a smart, little, witty thing or something. Like, it was straight up, like, Hey, no, no, no, no. Explain to me how this isn't bank fraud. Okay? Explain how this isn't wire fraud. It is wire fraud, Sam. No, no, he's not answering any questions. It was I. I definitely

00:29:54:16 - 00:29:55:17
Cas Piancey
lost my temper,

00:29:55:17 - 00:30:08:09
Cas Piancey
where you described having customer funds sent to Alameda as opposed to FTX, and that these were being wired through all of these banks. Essentially, your suggestion is that.

00:30:08:10 - 00:30:09:21
Sam Bankman-Fried
The bank says.

00:30:09:23 - 00:30:20:04
Cas Piancey
That these customer funds were being sent to Alameda Research and these customers who were customers of FTX. Can you help me understand how that's not wire fraud?

00:30:20:05 - 00:30:29:01
Sam Bankman-Fried
Sorry, just to be clear, and I'm done answering questions from you after this. Like you, this is not a constructive approach, but I will answer.

00:30:29:01 - 00:30:32:06
Cas Piancey
None of it has been none of it has been sent. You don't answer to understand.

00:30:32:06 - 00:30:35:09
Sam Bankman-Fried
Don't I understand? So I'm going to answer this question.

00:30:35:10 - 00:30:37:19
Cas Piancey
No, you're not.

00:30:37:21 - 00:30:40:11
Sam Bankman-Fried
All right. I won't if you don't want me to. Like you just said.

00:30:40:12 - 00:30:42:07
Cas Piancey
I'd love for you to answer any.

00:30:42:11 - 00:30:55:20
Speaker 2
So let's just real quick. I do want to keep things as civil as possible. I understand. I understand the positions and I understand the the the sentiment behind some of this. But I do want to hear the answer here, if possible. Sam.

00:30:56:02 - 00:31:42:23
Sam Bankman-Fried
Yeah, totally. So that that what you were referencing there was a different like I said, there are many, many payment routes. This is an example of, you know, there being many different payment routes. If you rewind back to eye to, you know, 2019, 2020 at that point, which is different from what I described just now. At that point, FTX mostly did not have its own bank accounts and, and so instead when customers wanted to wire money, they could reach out to Alameda, get wire instructions there, and wire might choose to wire money straight to Alameda research and then have Alameda transfer them, do a ledger transfer effectively on to them.

00:31:43:01 - 00:32:09:09
Sam Bankman-Fried
That was, I believe, roughly speaking, the route that some people used in the especially in the early days of fiat in order to I you know, get a wire transfer to result in them being able to access. Yes I to my knowledge they were aware of that relationship and they were aware of why was the way it was and of who they were sending funds to.

00:32:09:11 - 00:32:34:20
Sam Bankman-Fried
I you know, I think generally like the name on the account was Alameda research on I although I like I don't know all the details here on and and so that was that was a separate pathway that you know over time we decommissioned as we got access to basically as FTX was able to get access to its own set of bank accounts.

00:32:34:20 - 00:32:40:20
Cas Piancey
I call it the Jewish, like the Jewish mother nagging methodology of interview.

00:32:40:22 - 00:32:58:17
Cas Piancey
And I def I definitely actually did get under his skin. And ultimately he admitted that like his excuse for the bank fraud was like, well, yeah, it was bank fraud before, but you know. But then, but then. And I was just like, okay, okay. So it's bank fraud.

00:32:58:17 - 00:32:59:02
Cas Piancey
Good

00:32:59:02 - 00:33:15:00
Katie Baker
speaking of of not just Jewish fathers, all mothers everywhere, myself included, it's very it's a very like the day it starts tomorrow. Like a method, like methodology of accounting. It's like, don't worry. Like, the money's good. I got it all under control. So give me a few more days.

00:33:15:00 - 00:33:33:23
Katie Baker
Like one. Just like I'm just going to have one more donut, and then it's all just check back with me in a week, I'm going to be a new woman, you know? And I feel like that's the same thing that he was doing. Like it's you know, they showed the one of the things that I think really hit in the courtroom was they showed the

00:33:33:23 - 00:33:45:13
Katie Baker
Good Morning America George Stephanopoulos interview that was like and, you know, amid we keep hearing the day like November 2022, November 20, 22, you know, that's kind of when everything really fell to pieces.

00:33:45:13 - 00:34:01:02
Katie Baker
And they were just funny. They were like December 1st, 2022. And so it's just you realize that this is after all that. And then you see him. And that was this great interview where, you know, he's reading Malone documents and SBF is whispering,

00:34:01:02 - 00:34:04:12
Katie Baker
can't be long now, can't be loaned out

00:34:04:12 - 00:34:05:12
Sam Bankman-Fried
that are not here.

00:34:05:15 - 00:34:13:10
George Stephanopoulos
Here it says that the digital assets may not be loaned to FTX trading. They can't be loaned out.

00:34:13:12 - 00:34:17:22
Sam Bankman-Fried
I

00:34:17:22 - 00:34:22:17
Katie Baker
that was just a very telling piece of evidence know.

00:34:22:17 - 00:34:26:05
Katie Baker
And I do think also, if Sam chooses to testify,

00:34:26:05 - 00:34:28:01
Katie Baker
we've now seen him on camera

00:34:28:01 - 00:34:39:18
Katie Baker
speaking and seeing that it's bullshit. And so if he does testify, I think you lose a little bit of the resonance of like when you saying if you're the if you're the defense. I mean,

00:34:39:18 - 00:34:43:19
Cas Piancey
Yeah, but they have no, they have absolutely no control over that guy. I mean

00:34:43:19 - 00:34:45:09
Cas Piancey
he just wants to do it.

00:34:45:09 - 00:34:46:12
Cas Piancey
understand though

00:34:46:12 - 00:34:47:15
Cas Piancey
If he doesn't do it,

00:34:47:15 - 00:34:54:03
Cas Piancey
they don't put up any defense at all, his odds are pretty much zero that he's going to get off on any of these charges.

00:34:54:05 - 00:35:07:06
Cas Piancey
So you have to put up some sort of defense and then you think to yourself, especially if you're Sam Bankman-Fried, you think I can explain this and I am, and that gives me .01.

00:35:07:06 - 00:35:09:08
Cas Piancey
Yeah. Yeah.

00:35:09:10 - 00:35:10:03
Cas Piancey
And that gives me

00:35:10:03 - 00:35:16:00
Katie Baker
That's how he felt through the balance sheet. Usually I can fix that. It's like, it's like, give me some time.

00:35:16:00 - 00:35:36:22
Bennett Tomlin
you say just give me some time. But like, even up until, like literally the day before his arrest, he was going to speak to Congress. He was getting ready to go do that. He literally still believed up until the moment the cuffs were on him. I need just one more chance to put my face in front of the right people, say the right words, and my problems will go away.

00:35:37:00 - 00:35:51:23
Bennett Tomlin
And just to be clear, to give you some idea what Sam Bankman-Fried thinks, the right words are when you committed criminal acts, allegedly committed criminal acts, of course, I mean, is to just go out there and say, I fucked up. That's how you should open your under oath testimony when you think you may have committed

00:35:51:23 - 00:35:53:05
Cas Piancey
To Congress.

00:35:53:05 - 00:35:54:17
Katie Baker
like, who can resist.

00:35:54:17 - 00:36:00:09
Katie Baker
they're still trying to do it right. They're still trying to argue for the value.

00:36:00:14 - 00:36:18:20
Katie Baker
The current valuation of anthropic, as if like the latest investment extrapolated to a valuation and it's like the same thing that they've already been talking about. They're like none of it. Look, in this case, look at this multiple. And so and they've sort of they haven't really done in my mind a

00:36:18:20 - 00:36:24:03
Katie Baker
like example of doing this, but they've started to kind of talk about the fungibility of a dollar.

00:36:24:03 - 00:36:44:14
Katie Baker
And, you know, so, you know, the road they're trying to go down, they go they're just it's all the same pool of money. But yeah, there's still there's still kind of going down that road like with the when they're trying to get on topic and the judges and having it. And I think Danny talked about this, you know, he if I rob if I rob you and win the lottery, like I still robbed you.

00:36:44:16 - 00:37:01:08
Katie Baker
But you can see how if Sam takes a stand, how he's starting to say, well, these are all these incredibly next level ideas that I had. And I just thought my state of mind was that if I could just, you know, and and maybe hoping that someone thinks that that means it's not fraud,

00:37:01:08 - 00:37:12:14
Cas Piancey
Criminal negligence, right. Like I that's all I'm I keep repeating in my mind is they really need them to believe this is criminal negligence not

00:37:12:14 - 00:37:13:11
Cas Piancey
not

00:37:13:11 - 00:37:14:23
Cas Piancey
intent, you know fraud

00:37:14:23 - 00:37:25:03
Katie Baker
you would have to think a lot of people were straight up lying whose entire deals the government are contingent upon them not lying to think that that's the case.

00:37:25:05 - 00:37:28:22
Katie Baker
And yeah, maybe someone is able to make those mental gymnastics. But like I don't

00:37:28:22 - 00:37:43:13
Katie Baker
you know, I've also been thinking about how like, how would this be different if it was in California versus New York, if you had a different jury and maybe in California, you would capture a couple, you know, people in your pool who would be more easily willing to

00:37:43:13 - 00:37:46:06
Cas Piancey
hippie anti government.

00:37:46:06 - 00:38:09:15
Katie Baker
think in New York, it's a lot of guys that are, you know, are not guys, but, you know, guys and gals that are like they have a really good bullshit detector and are just seeing someone who's not even particularly artful bullshit artist. You know, I think they just that's kind of my take on it. But yeah, it'd be interesting to see if you like, did the same thing over again with a Silicon Valley pool.

00:38:09:15 - 00:38:12:01
Katie Baker
Like what you might pull.

00:38:12:01 - 00:38:14:02
Cas Piancey
are you going to be attending the rest of the trial

00:38:14:02 - 00:38:15:12
Cas Piancey
and trying and trying to get in.

00:38:15:12 - 00:38:19:21
Cas Piancey
Are you trying to get into the like actual the actual courtroom

00:38:19:21 - 00:38:24:21
Katie Baker
I think they said two days before the defense begins they have to file who their

00:38:24:21 - 00:38:37:04
Katie Baker
witnesses or if they're having a defense or as I as I talk now, I don't I still don't know whether Sam's testifying. If he is testifying, I am hoping to be there for it.

00:38:37:04 - 00:38:44:03
Katie Baker
And if I'm there for it, I'm hoping to be there for it. So, yeah, wish me luck. We'll see.

00:38:44:03 - 00:38:55:21
Katie Baker
It's been really cool to cover it the past few weeks and I'm really, you know, glad that my editor was like, Let me go on this wild ride. I think. I think they heard the passion in my voice as I was pitching it.

00:38:55:21 - 00:39:00:02
Katie Baker
And they they let me let me go. And then they you know,

00:39:00:02 - 00:39:04:02
Katie Baker
we've kind of seen that. It's been just like a really interesting case, even though it doesn't

00:39:04:02 - 00:39:10:20
Katie Baker
it doesn't seem like a close case. But there's still like a lot of interesting things that are still being like that are coming to light in the course of it.

00:39:10:20 - 00:39:11:10
Katie Baker
So

00:39:11:10 - 00:39:16:23
Katie Baker
but we'll see. Who knows? I mean, I don't want to sound like I'm like very one sided, even though I

00:39:16:23 - 00:39:17:23
Katie Baker
have come to

00:39:17:23 - 00:39:28:18
Katie Baker
you know, when you interpret what you've seen, it has tilted to one side. But, you know, I'm I'm willing to be convinced and swayed and. Yeah, we'll see.

00:39:28:18 - 00:39:41:20
Bennett Tomlin
It feels increasingly unlikely that Sam Bankman-Fried was the only FTX executive not to commit felonies. Everyone else around him was committing felonies, and he didn't even know they were happening. I mean, come on

00:39:41:20 - 00:39:45:17
Cas Piancey
I think maybe we brought this up with David Z morris.

00:39:45:17 - 00:40:00:06
Cas Piancey
I know that the defense team or the firm, the law firm that's representing Sam Bankman-Fried is the same one that represented Ghislaine Maxwell. For anyone who's unfamiliar, she was the partner in crime.

00:40:00:08 - 00:40:03:04
Cas Piancey
Her for Jeffrey Epstein.

00:40:03:04 - 00:40:14:18
Cas Piancey
I guess I'm just reflecting on that and going like, has anyone thought about, like, how did they perform in that trial? Like, she got 20 what, she got 20 years? I believe in federal in federal prison.

00:40:14:18 - 00:40:21:21
Cas Piancey
she wasn't expected to get off either. Maybe she had better odds of getting of getting away with it then.

00:40:21:23 - 00:40:26:20
Cas Piancey
Sam Bankman-Fried did at the beginning of this trial. So I'm just kind of curious if, like,

00:40:26:20 - 00:40:28:10
Cas Piancey
it doesn't seem like

00:40:28:10 - 00:40:36:17
Cas Piancey
you bet on this defense team to completely get you off of criminal charges, which is maybe why this is a little bit puzzling for everybody.

00:40:36:17 - 00:40:39:15
Cas Piancey
If Sam really thinks that he's going to somehow

00:40:39:15 - 00:40:43:07
Cas Piancey
escape any any charges whatsoever, like I can't imagine

00:40:43:07 - 00:40:44:21
Cas Piancey
he can't believe that, you know,

00:40:44:21 - 00:40:46:19
Katie Baker
no, I know that. I always think that

00:40:46:19 - 00:40:50:02
Katie Baker
I think about like, what's Sam thinking right now

00:40:50:02 - 00:40:57:02
Katie Baker
especially so like two things. So the lawyers like you said have, you know, a lot of high profile

00:40:57:02 - 00:41:02:22
Katie Baker
defense cases under their belt. They're also like former prosecutors back in the day, which I think is kind of a

00:41:02:22 - 00:41:06:03
Katie Baker
somewhat of a standard trajectory for a lot of people.

00:41:06:03 - 00:41:11:09
Katie Baker
I think to some extent it's like, well, they they can navigate the system. Maybe they can

00:41:11:09 - 00:41:16:23
Katie Baker
you know, knock off years. But you would think if you're looking to knock off years, there's a better way to do it, which would be to

00:41:16:23 - 00:41:18:06
Katie Baker
not go to trial

00:41:18:06 - 00:41:20:01
Katie Baker
you hear stats about when you go to trial.

00:41:20:01 - 00:41:24:10
Katie Baker
I guess that's why it's like 90% of the time they win or something like that.

00:41:24:10 - 00:41:26:01
Cas Piancey
96

00:41:26:01 - 00:41:36:05
Katie Baker
with all that in mind and knowing Sam and I just keep thinking like, what is he thinking when the sort of third string lawyer and his team is

00:41:36:05 - 00:41:41:21
Katie Baker
fumbling around cross-examination, he must just think this idiot,

00:41:41:21 - 00:41:50:08
Katie Baker
whether or not he's right, whether or not he could ever do this kind of work, you know, offered not for the truth of it, but for the effect on the listener.

00:41:50:08 - 00:42:04:10
Katie Baker
Your Honor, I'm not saying he's an idiot, but like, I just always wonder what must Sam be thinking. And you can sometimes get a proxy into what he might be thinking by looking over at his parents and they're scribbling on a notepad. And sometimes they're more animated than other times.

00:42:04:10 - 00:42:06:09
Katie Baker
But I think the same thing. What are they thinking?

00:42:06:09 - 00:42:09:21
Katie Baker
They're they are some of their associates are spending all this money.

00:42:09:21 - 00:42:15:15
Katie Baker
What are they trying to get out of the money? What? You know, they're not they're not naive.

00:42:15:15 - 00:42:26:13
Cas Piancey
that's an amazing question, right. It's like what what is the goal here? Is it to get a possible solid appeal? Like I'm just I'm, I'm genuinely confused as to what they're attempting to do

00:42:26:13 - 00:42:31:02
Katie Baker
don't know much, but I would think to get an appeal, you'd have to have like incompetent lawyers.

00:42:31:02 - 00:42:32:11
Katie Baker
And it doesn't seem like they're

00:42:32:11 - 00:42:33:19
Katie Baker
grossly incompetent.

00:42:33:19 - 00:42:45:12
Katie Baker
it's like if you're trying to tank for the number one draft pick, like you got to do a better job than that. But, but yeah, I know. I sometimes don't know what they're looking to do

00:42:45:12 - 00:42:55:14
Katie Baker
if this was really your swing for the fences, then why, why is your cross-examination of Caroline like kind of falling onto such just such a dud

00:42:55:14 - 00:42:58:09
Cas Piancey
Obviously Sam is convinced that he's the

00:42:58:09 - 00:43:05:11
Cas Piancey
the soothsayer here and the truth teller, Right. Like he's convinced of that. Fine. And based on like

00:43:05:11 - 00:43:10:20
Cas Piancey
based on some of the interviews with Sam at his home that I've read,

00:43:10:20 - 00:43:20:01
Cas Piancey
it pretty much sounds like his mom is very clearly convinced that he can't tell a lie. So she's on board with whatever that is.

00:43:20:03 - 00:43:23:08
Cas Piancey
But then I haven't heard that from

00:43:23:08 - 00:43:24:13
Cas Piancey
from Joe.

00:43:24:13 - 00:43:25:15
Cas Piancey
And I'm just like,

00:43:25:15 - 00:43:44:12
Cas Piancey
you guys are wagering your home and your entire everything, your reputation, everything. You're you're putting it all on the line. For what? For what? Like and I can't wrap my head around that because they're the ones since Sam doesn't have money to put up, they have money to put up.

00:43:44:12 - 00:43:47:12
Cas Piancey
And I'm just what is happening, you know, what is this.

00:43:47:12 - 00:43:49:06
Katie Baker
honestly, to me, that continues to be

00:43:49:06 - 00:43:53:04
Katie Baker
like the unanswered, unanswerable maybe question of just

00:43:53:04 - 00:43:59:04
Katie Baker
are they trying to accomplish? What are they in that in light of that? Like, how do they think it's going?

00:43:59:04 - 00:44:07:05
Katie Baker
And, you know, and they're there every day and increasingly they're sort of being entered into evidence.

00:44:07:07 - 00:44:16:08
Katie Baker
You know, I had read the FTX's bankruptcy suit against them, and there's a lot of details in that about the involvement they had

00:44:16:08 - 00:44:17:03
Katie Baker
on the

00:44:17:03 - 00:44:25:03
Katie Baker
charitable side and on the real estate side and on the operational side. And and a lot of that stuff actually came up in the forensic accountant guy.

00:44:25:03 - 00:44:27:10
Katie Baker
He was showing flows of money to

00:44:27:10 - 00:44:37:22
Katie Baker
their $16 million condo in the Bahamas and and showing them signing off on things and I think and stuff with Nishad with his testimony there coming up in the guise of

00:44:37:22 - 00:44:40:23
Katie Baker
directing money to be kind of channeled through him.

00:44:40:23 - 00:44:48:09
Katie Baker
So you would think that they would not want to go to court either, because all of these things are coming out in the record about them

00:44:48:13 - 00:44:56:11
Katie Baker
in multiple fronts. So, yeah, that that remains fascinating. I don't have like the any answers. I'm

00:44:56:11 - 00:44:58:03
Katie Baker
but I'm just always

00:44:58:03 - 00:45:03:05
Katie Baker
looking to see their reactions to things and they can be pretty reactive sometimes, you know

00:45:03:05 - 00:45:25:14
Bennett Tomlin
we talked a little bit about K5 and how it was a relationship kind of super connector for Sam Bankman-Fried that let him access all these celebrities and all these athletes. Anthony Scaramucci, by his own sometimes boisterous description, was one of Sam Bankman-Fried's political super connectors, where he described opening his Rolodex of political contacts to Sam Bankman-Fried.

00:45:25:16 - 00:45:40:13
Bennett Tomlin
We could argue about the quality and quantity of those contacts later, but do you think there's ever going to be any kind of reckoning culturally or socially, with how easy it was for Sam Bankman-Fried to access like a couple of these nodes and get so close to power so quickly?

00:45:40:15 - 00:45:44:15
Katie Baker
that's interesting like and Scaramucci come up a tiny bit.

00:45:44:17 - 00:45:49:08
Katie Baker
They've sort of inserted a couple emails and tweets from him in there.

00:45:49:08 - 00:46:08:13
Katie Baker
in my dreams, he would testify of it. But yeah, I think, like it's been interesting to see when the when some of the the political like Nishad straw man donor type stuff up. You know you see people saying well this is just how it is this is this is not shocking at all.

00:46:08:15 - 00:46:11:11
Katie Baker
And then other people saying, well, is this?

00:46:11:11 - 00:46:28:10
Katie Baker
but I think the story they told the jury, they did a good job of finding the kind of cinematic elements of it which were, you know, a staffer of Sam's brother flying to the Bahamas with a, you know, a case of blank checks to be signed and then flying away.

00:46:28:10 - 00:46:37:00
Katie Baker
And, you know, they haven't really, like gotten into the effective altruism thing that Sam's involved in very much at all. They've sort of spoke to it in Caroline's testimony about

00:46:37:00 - 00:46:41:04
Katie Baker
how he's a utilitarian and how he felt like it was okay to lie and steal.

00:46:41:04 - 00:46:45:19
Katie Baker
quoted Will MacAskill, but they haven't said who will MacAskill really was or what he represented.

00:46:45:19 - 00:46:57:07
Katie Baker
So they've sort of that's one of the things that they've just been like, doesn't matter in this case for the jury. We all know that that was like this huge thing around it. And I

00:46:57:07 - 00:47:00:04
Katie Baker
do think that like that is kind of been almost

00:47:00:04 - 00:47:04:00
Katie Baker
the collateral damage that the case has been to that movement in some ways,

00:47:04:00 - 00:47:06:02
Katie Baker
though it's not like within the trial,

00:47:06:02 - 00:47:14:16
Cas Piancey
Collateral damage almost makes it sound like a bad thing, though. And I just want to say that I'm like, I'm very I'm pro that collateral damage for whatever.

00:47:14:16 - 00:47:16:02
Cas Piancey
For what it's worth.

00:47:16:02 - 00:47:25:00
Katie Baker
Yeah. No, I just mean in terms of like if there is people that are shocked by something, you're like, well, yeah, they I, I know. I was like trying to think of like how you would even

00:47:25:00 - 00:47:28:08
Cas Piancey
It's the right phrase. I just want to clarify that it

00:47:28:08 - 00:47:31:11
Katie Baker
But, but that's not been something that's on like inside the courtroom at all really.

00:47:31:11 - 00:47:36:07
Katie Baker
I mean a little bit of it but not they haven't explained earn to give or anything.

00:47:36:07 - 00:47:49:13
Cas Piancey
right. This is the same as like USDC or TUSD or USDT like they're not going to explain that shit. They're not going to explain stablecoins to a jury of your peers. They don't. No one cares

00:47:50:01 - 00:47:53:15
Bennett Tomlin
They did explain Stablecoins to the jury of the peers.

00:47:53:15 - 00:47:57:11
Katie Baker
there was a definition of zero but yeah, they kind of say it and move on. They don't

00:47:57:11 - 00:48:03:10
Cas Piancey
Right. They're not like well tether is supposed to be. It's not, that is not what they're going to do, you know, like,

00:48:03:10 - 00:48:09:11
Bennett Tomlin
are you saying they're trying to prove a criminal case and not satisfy a couple of weirdos on Twitter?

00:48:10:06 - 00:48:21:23
Katie Baker
they and I don't mean to say this right, like you said, weirdos on Twitter because I, I interviewed them for the same article that I interviewed Cas for, but we haven't gotten the Bitfinex’ed tweet, I don't think

00:48:21:23 - 00:48:30:21
Cas Piancey
it's been wacky. I'm really looking forward to your next article like so much I'm super excited. I hope it's coming out this week or next week.

00:48:30:21 - 00:48:33:11
Cas Piancey
I have no idea. And I'm not your editor,

00:48:33:11 - 00:48:48:19
Katie Baker
What are you, my editor? What is this, Slack? Any update? No. Yeah, I will. My plan is to have something this week coming out of what the judge called the intermission.

00:48:48:19 - 00:49:12:15
Katie Baker
Even it was his. He's at a judge's conference, which I just think is so funny to imagine. Like them all in their robes. Like during the Macarena or something. But yeah, coming out of intermission, I'm hoping to have just like kind of a something speaking to like, well, you know, all the things that we've seen and learned and, and then yeah, if we'll see have Sam testifies

00:49:12:21 - 00:49:14:13
Bennett Tomlin
Let's hope so.

00:49:14:13 - 00:49:16:00
Katie Baker
very best to be there for it.

00:49:16:01 - 00:49:24:17
Cas Piancey
Fingers crossed. Fingers crossed. Awesome. Well, thank you for, thanks for coming on, Katie. That was, That was fantastic

00:49:24:17 - 00:49:29:00
Katie Baker
thanks for having me. It's so fun to talk to you guys. Like I said, I've been a fan for a long time.
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3 responses to “Episode 138 – Tweets, Trolls, and Superstars in the Sam Bankman-Fried Trial (feat. Katie Baker)”

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