A Tale of Two Ponzis: Celsius and Luna, Alex Mashinsky and Do Kwon – Crypto Critics' Corner
Today Bennett and Cas discuss the best of times and the worst of times for two enormous Ponzi scemes: Celsius – a now bankrupt cryptocurrency lender – and Luna – an algorithmic stablecoin ecosystem once valued at nearly $60 billion, and the two individuals who ultimately led them to their downfalls: Alex Mashinsky and Do Kwon.
This episode was recorded on September 28th,, 2022.
Other episodes mentioned in this episode:
- Episode 26 – Cryptocurrency Lending is Too Good to Believe
- Episode 85 – Celsius Network: A Pyramid of Ponzis
- Episode 93 – Saylor’s Strategy – A MicroTragedy
- Episode 79 – Celsius Collapse: Causes, Concern, and Catastrophe (Feat. Dirty Bubble Media)
- Episode 71 – Terra, Luna, and Algorithmic Stablecoins
- Episode 72 – We Never Want to Discuss Terra and Luna Again…and yet
- Episode 7 – QuadrigaCX: the Canadian cryptocurrency exchange that just won’t die
- Episode 40 – The Silk Road, Bitcoin, and Ross (featuring Nicholas Weaver)
Other resources mentioned in this episode:
- KeyFi lawsuit against Celsius
- Celsius lawsuit against KeyFi
- Coverage of the Celsius countersuit
- Mashinsky resigns
- Celsius Network all-hands
- Bennett’s reaction to Coinage interview of Do Kwon
- What is a red notice?
- Cas’ article on death fraud
Where to find Crypto Critics’ Corner:
- Bennett’s Twitter
- Cas’ Twitter
- Bennett’s Newsletter
- Cas’ Blog
- Bennett’s Blog
- Bennett’s YouTube
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00:00:05:00 - 00:00:26:29 Cas Piancey Welcome back, everyone. I am Cas Piancey and I'm joined, as usual by my partner in crime, Mr. Bennett Tolman. I know he's doing good. I'm doing good. We're recording back to back right now, which is why we're wearing the same clothes also, which is something you might notice. But today we are going to be talking about two topics quite near and dear to our hearts. 00:00:27:26 - 00:00:59:24 Cas Piancey We are going to be talking about Alex Mashinsky and Celsius and we are going to be talking about Do Kwon and the fallout from Luna and Terra. Let's start with Celsius. Alex Mashinsky They've been going through this bankruptcy. It's been a shit show to determine as nicely as possible. It has it has been a disaster. Krissy Mashinsky, his wife, has been really acting silly, still tweeting a lot, saying a lot of things when it would be best to shut your mouth. 00:00:59:24 - 00:01:02:10 Cas Piancey I know it is hard for criminals to do that for some reason. 00:01:03:13 - 00:01:04:20 Bennett Tomlin Selling bankruptcy merch. 00:01:04:29 - 00:01:22:25 Cas Piancey Yeah, yeah. I was going to get into that a little bit later. We'll will delve further into that. But regardless, there's just been a lot of updates when it comes to the Celsius collapse. So let's go ahead and get started. Where would you like to start in this? Because there's there's so much to to to delve into. 00:01:22:26 - 00:01:56:21 Bennett Tomlin Our last episode on Celsius was about the Jason Stone KeyFi lawsuit against Celsius that accused them of being a Ponzi scheme. Since that lawsuit was filed, Celsius has countersued KeyFi and Jason Stone, alleging that Jason Stone and KeyFi I stole a bunch of nfts. We don't need to spend long in this, but I wanted to bring it up because in our last episode about this we discussed and showed the NFT is that I thought were the ones that Jason was accusing Krissy Mashinsky of misappropriating Celsius has accused Jason Stone of misappropriating a whole bunch of nfts. 00:01:56:21 - 00:02:17:01 Bennett Tomlin And we talked about this very briefly in the last episode where I mentioned that before this set of entities, which is that that was the set that might have gone to Krissy. There was a whole bunch of other nfts that were transferred out to a wallet that looked to me like it was controlled by Jason. And Jason mentioned in his lawsuit that he said this was part of a previously agreed upon profit sharing agreement. 00:02:17:01 - 00:02:50:19 Bennett Tomlin I have questions about what profits were available to be shared and why they were shared in NFT. But that was Jason's claim in his lawsuit. Celsius’ claim is that Jason's and KeyFi were inappropriate and irresponsible traders who took customer deposits from Celsius failed to hedge, use those to buy nfts without permission from Celsius. And with the knowledge that Celsius is well wallet tracking technology couldn't see nfts for some reason and then decided to misappropriate dozens and dozens and dozens of these nfts. 00:02:51:20 - 00:03:12:25 Bennett Tomlin And you know what? I think that both the lawsuits probably contain a lot of truth like we've seen from some of the state attorney general investigations and stuff into Celsius, that if you ignore the Celsius token on their balance sheet, they were insolvent as early as like 2019. And so Jason Stone’s accusations that they had a massive hole in their balance sheet seem strongly supported. 00:03:13:08 - 00:03:34:13 Bennett Tomlin And Jason's allegation that the Mashinsky’s misappropriated some of the nfts he bought with customer deposits for themselves. I still think that's true. And I think the nfts I found before are still likely those NFT is now the Celsius accusation that Jason Stone went in and bought a ton of NFT and then transferred them to a wall that he controlled. 00:03:34:18 - 00:03:53:21 Bennett Tomlin Yeah, I'm pretty sure those are true too, because you can see a whole bunch of NFT is moving out of the 0xb1 one well into this other one. And so what do we have? We have a idiotic Ponzi scheme that hired a brain dead trader, gave him basically carte blanche with customer deposits, and now they're fucked, everyone's fucked and it's a fucking shit show. 00:03:54:01 - 00:04:00:17 Bennett Tomlin So I think that's a fun update just because it helps kind of emphasize how incompetent many of the people involved in the story are. 00:04:00:17 - 00:04:25:11 Cas Piancey Yeah, that it isn't just Celsius Celsius. It's people they were hiring and contracting with. Another key update that I think is actually quite important is that Alex Mashinsky has stepped down as CEO of of what was once Celsius network. I don't know what the the sell so. Q I guess we should call it yeah that he he's decided to step down. 00:04:25:19 - 00:04:29:21 Cas Piancey I guess he claims he was a distraction. I mean I think he's always been kind of a distraction. 00:04:29:29 - 00:04:31:12 Bennett Tomlin Resigned isn't the full story. 00:04:31:12 - 00:04:32:07 Cas Piancey Yeah, go ahead. 00:04:32:21 - 00:04:53:27 Bennett Tomlin The yeah. So the UCC, the unsecured creditor committee had basically demanded that Mashinsky be removed as CEO and after that may after they made that demand, before he could be removed and before that process was started, then he put in his resignation saying, I've been a distraction, yada, yada. I will no longer be CEO will hand that over to the CFO. 00:04:54:00 - 00:05:10:08 Bennett Tomlin But don't worry, I'm staying on as executive director of our subsidiary that has most of the assets. And so he's not CEO. The unsecured creditor committee didn't want him as CEO anymore, but he's still the director of the most important company in the Celsius network. Network? 00:05:10:13 - 00:05:37:09 Cas Piancey Yeah, this is similar to the Michael Saylor move to step down as CEO of MicroStrategy but remain the controlling shareholder and chairman of the board. So how much power has actually moved away from the clutches of Alex Mashinsky with this move? Probably not very much, but you know, it's at least a step in the right direction, which would be to see him step away. 00:05:38:06 - 00:05:49:05 Cas Piancey So, you know, that that I think is a good thing. Regardless, hopefully he has to fully step away, not that there is going to be much left of Celsius network by the end of all of this. 00:05:49:14 - 00:06:11:21 Bennett Tomlin Related to this, before he ended up resigning, there was actually this really interesting call that Tiffany Fong leaked that was this like all hands meeting at Celsius, an internal meeting where they were discussing kind of what was going on and they were discussing this is before Mashinsky resigned, he was telling the employees that we're safe in bankruptcy. The other crypto lenders who are still out there are not bankrupt. 00:06:11:28 - 00:06:14:22 Bennett Tomlin They're in danger. We're safe here and nothing can go wrong. 00:06:14:28 - 00:06:21:18 Alex Mashinsky And again, Celsius is in a relatively safe place, filing Chapter 11 versus a lot of other players. 00:06:21:22 - 00:06:30:21 Bennett Tomlin And then like continued with like, do you still drink Pepsi? Pepsi declared bankruptcy and they're still good to drink. So people will still use Celsius. Why are you worried about it? 00:06:30:23 - 00:06:51:19 Alex Mashinsky How many how many of you use drink Pepsi versus Coca-Cola. At least a third drinks Pepsi. Well, Pepsi filed for bankruptcy twice. Does it make the Pepsi taste less good? So the point is it's not a bankruptcy filing is a test for the company. It's a test of should you come out or should you disappear? 00:06:52:02 - 00:07:15:03 Bennett Tomlin And also announced the Kelvin project, which was going to be the new version of Celsius, which was going to be absolutely transparent and zero trust. I mean, requires zero trust. I mean, people would have zero trust. Zero trust was involved. Mashinsky made that very clear and so the new plan was Celsius was for them to, as soon as possible, return assets to their custody. 00:07:15:22 - 00:07:40:20 Bennett Tomlin Customers use Bitcoin mining, which they are still actively losing money on every month to start filling the hole in their balance sheet and rebrand their company so that they could relaunch their other services and start charging fees. And then to get to a point where they have a sustainable business model and can close the gap they have in their books, it's basically all nonsense, right? 00:07:40:20 - 00:07:50:05 Bennett Tomlin Like I think anyone who seriously expects Celsius to be a going concern after these bankruptcy hearings is foolishly optimistic. 00:07:51:05 - 00:08:17:02 Cas Piancey It's pretty incredible, though. It does. It does still trade as of the time of recording. It's trading around a buck 50 per Celsius token. I don't know what we want to call that, but and the market cap is over $600 million, which is wild when you think of the fact that there's really nothing there anymore. I mean, there is nothing there. 00:08:17:02 - 00:08:41:01 Cas Piancey I'm I don't know what else to say. Like, all of the assets are frozen. Nobody can trade with anything on the platform. There's no there's I think you can keep your loan going if you want to for whatever reason. Nothing is happening there anymore. So I like the fact that people are valuing it at I don't know what they're valuing at $680. 00:08:41:01 - 00:08:43:19 Cas Piancey I truly don't. 00:08:43:19 - 00:08:45:27 Bennett Tomlin Well, especially since the token doesn't do anything. 00:08:46:10 - 00:08:52:27 Cas Piancey Like that's what that's what they claim the credit. I mean it kept them solvent. It kept it did a lot of solvent. 00:08:52:27 - 00:08:53:26 Bennett Tomlin It kept them. So yeah. 00:08:54:01 - 00:08:56:26 Cas Piancey Air quotes for anybody not not watching. 00:08:56:26 - 00:09:36:26 Bennett Tomlin And let's talk about the CEL token for a second because the Vermont Department of Financial Regulations is part of this bankruptcy hearings made an interesting filing in which they make the claim that the Celsius network, by increasing its net position in CEL by hundreds of millions of dollars, increased and propped up the market price of CEL, thereby artificially inflating the company's CEL holdings on its balance sheet and financial statements and so this is what we're talking about, how Celsius wasn't insolvent because they had this valuable asset on their books, the sell token, and that they used their other funds to go out into the marketplace and to try to insure the market price of sell 00:09:36:26 - 00:09:59:21 Bennett Tomlin tokens is high enough that the amount of sell on their books stayed large enough that they were not insolvent. Air quotes again. And we talked about this a little bit when Dirty Bubble Media was on about how they were doing these activities in the market to try and protect the price of Celsius. And so they've now been accused by a state financial regulator of doing this thing that was observed by these critics, by these skeptics in the open. 00:10:00:00 - 00:10:08:21 Bennett Tomlin Well, they were doing it. And so, yeah, that's another update on Celsius is that one of these accusations has even more support. 00:10:08:26 - 00:10:34:00 Cas Piancey What is the difference between, say, a, having shares of I don't know. Let's just let's use a very common stock, having shares of Apple and then Apple deciding to purchase back shares of it's own company. Right. Which I think some people would say is like would help the stock price go up. What's the difference between that and Celsius buying up a bunch of their sell token? 00:10:34:20 - 00:10:55:16 Bennett Tomlin Well, one difference is disclosure, right? Corporate buybacks are done in the open with everyone involved, aware and generally with shareholder approval. Mashinsky and Alex sorry, Christi and Alex buying tokens from their wallets is not directly analogous to that because it's not being done in the open. 00:10:57:11 - 00:11:16:22 Cas Piancey I think a a second a second point I wanted to, to bring into the fold and why I asked this question is because I want to make clear that sell tokens didn't provide any rights to holders of sell token over the company Celsius like they didn't it didn't provide them any new decisions that they could help make. It wasn't a governance token. 00:11:16:27 - 00:11:44:03 Cas Piancey They didn't have like in terms of if you are a shareholder, regardless of if you take part in it or not, it usually provides you voting rights and it essentially is part ownership of a company Celsius network token didn't do that. What it did was provide like essentially fees like you could lower your fees on the platform and you could get more, better interest rates on loans and stuff like that. 00:11:44:17 - 00:11:49:20 Cas Piancey If you used the CEL token as your collateral. 00:11:49:20 - 00:12:13:06 Bennett Tomlin Yeah. That the the other difference sorry. The other difference I want to highlight is that when you buyback your stock, you're taking those out of circulation. Right. You're saying that you're that's no longer an issued stock after you've purchased it back, whereas what Celsius was doing was surreptitiously repurchasing this and then holding their own asset on their own books to like cover these holes and stuff. 00:12:13:22 - 00:12:41:12 Cas Piancey There's lots of issues with the actual token. I just want to make sure that people understand this is nothing like the stock market. It is. It doesn't provide you any of the same rights as having shares of a company. It doesn't it's not giving you any ownership like it is more or less just this security getting treated like there's there's no real value to this thing other than collateral, like getting better rates on their, on their platform. 00:12:42:04 - 00:13:05:22 Cas Piancey So I just want to make sure people understand that before we move forward to I think the other topic, the topic we hoped after the second time we discussed it, we would never have to talk to you about again. But Luna and Terra, Do Kwon I'll do the too long didn't read here and you can kind of delve in a little bit further the collapse happened. 00:13:05:22 - 00:13:30:19 Cas Piancey This was a $60 billion stablecoin ecosystem. We'll call it $60 billion in value. We don't know. There's there was certainly not $60 billion locked up in that in that ecosystem, but it collapsed. Do Kwon kind of separated himself from being responsible for it and just kind of said like, well, you know, mistakes were made then a lot of things were discovered about Do Kwon like that. 00:13:30:19 - 00:13:54:22 Cas Piancey He had tried to do a stablecoin kind of the exact same way before this. And everyone was like, Well, why didn't you learn anything from that dude? And he was like, I don't know. Anyway. And then people were like, It seems like you're running from South Korean authorities. And he was like, Well, they don't want me. And would I have named my daughter Luna if I didn't believe in the Luna project? 00:13:54:22 - 00:14:14:21 Cas Piancey And a lot of bullshit. He did an interview with a guy named Zak Guzman, which was something. Yeah, that's not the word I was going to use. But if that's the word you want to use, I will let you use it and defend your right to say that. But it was something and it was it was it was weird. 00:14:14:21 - 00:14:42:14 Cas Piancey It was really weird. Regardless, he said he was in Singapore and that he, you know, had planned to be in Singapore long before he moved there. And then all this shit came crashing down and that authorities absolutely were after him in South Korea that they want him to face justice for what he did, because a large proportion of investors in the Terra and Luna ecosystem were from South Korea. 00:14:42:14 - 00:15:11:16 Cas Piancey He was a big shot over there. People thought he was like the next kind of Samsung, king of the Internet, king of tech, king of industry, and that they hate him. To put it lightly, I think so. South Korean authorities issued a warrant for his arrest and then reached out to Interpol, which is the international police. I think that's what Interpol means, international police, more or less. 00:15:13:03 - 00:15:38:24 Cas Piancey And they issued what's called a red notice, which means 195 nations now have Do Kwon information and a request to extradite him to South Korea to face justice. Do said, I'm not on the red notice list because he publicly searched for his name and didn't see it, which again confirmed that he is absolutely on the Interpol red notice list. 00:15:38:24 - 00:15:56:13 Cas Piancey And then he said, I'm not on the run, I'm not hiding from anybody, but he will not disclose where he is. And he definitely is not in South Korea or Singapore. Nobody knows where this dude is. He's at the mall hanging out, man. He's at the mall hanging out. People from from cryptocurrency, Twitter have seen him all over the place. 00:15:56:20 - 00:16:22:27 Cas Piancey He's not hiding from anybody. It's all good. So a lot of bullshit, a lot of lies getting spewed, some people saying it's a shit posting. I actually think he's I think he's dead serious and he's trying to cocky like be a cocky kind of like see like I'm no like I what I'm not, dude, I'm the fucking king of stablecoins men like my. 00:16:23:00 - 00:16:34:21 Cas Piancey And it's like, now you're fucking terrified. To me, it's clear he's really, really scared of the repercussions that await him in South Korea. But we don't know. We don't know what's going on right now. 00:16:35:12 - 00:16:57:02 Bennett Tomlin When the games you choose to play are confidence games, it's critically important you maintain that confidence. No one, no matter the circumstances. And so Do like sees you before him, who also loves to play those confidence games, makes sure, no matter the circumstances, that he appears confident. We're working through this. Your size is not size. Steady, lads. Deploying, not on the run. 00:16:57:02 - 00:17:20:14 Bennett Tomlin I'm out at the mall no matter what. He has to create the appearance that he is confident and in control because that myth is fundamental for him maintaining access to resources that are useful to him. Right. Even though Luna Terra classic bullshit to whatever fuck whatever the fuck that fucking ecosystem is called now even though it's a tiny husk shell, nothing compared to what it used to be. 00:17:20:22 - 00:17:23:24 Bennett Tomlin Maintaining the fiction that it's like a thing that people are working on, that. 00:17:23:24 - 00:17:29:00 Cas Piancey He's working on, that he's working on. He's he's coding in his computer constantly. 00:17:30:07 - 00:17:54:27 Bennett Tomlin That that helps him say Luna wasn't a fraud, Luna wasn't a scam. Ignore my lies, ignore all the people hurt, ignore all the deaths. What really matters is I was experimenting and I was trying to build. And still I sit here today in my living room experimenting and trying to build. Is that a crime? It's it's he's, like, trying to, like, shift the argument, make the argument about something. 00:17:54:27 - 00:18:27:10 Bennett Tomlin It's not right. He's trying to make it. And in a sense, he's kind of, I think, trying to still do what he did kind of with the Luna Foundation Guard Reserve right? His goal was buy a bunch of Bitcoin. So the rest of crypto has to be nice to me or else I'll fuck them over, right? And so now he's like, I'm going to embody all of the worst aspects of my crypto persona because I need to make sure that those people in crypto, one who are still open to listening to the bullshit I spew, remain open to listening to the bullshit I spew. 00:18:27:17 - 00:18:32:19 Bennett Tomlin Because there may come a point I'll need to tap them or their resources to benefit myself. 00:18:33:15 - 00:19:13:06 Cas Piancey It's to me, it's pretty infuriating just because I think his straight up arrogance is going to it's it's going to hurt him really bad, which is fine. Like he deserves it. At this point, I would I would argue, like, if anyone in cryptocurrency deserves to spend a lot of time in prison, it is probably Do Kwon, who doesn't seem to have any remorse for the people that he harmed and doesn't doesn't care about being a wanted criminal, is trying to make it seem cool when I think there were a lot of people before him who went about it a lot smarter and better who people who I probably would disagree with on almost everything. 00:19:14:04 - 00:19:41:12 Cas Piancey Arthur Hayes, famously the the former CEO of BitMEX, what, 100 X, whatever it's called, he was like on the run for I don't know, maybe it was a month and a half. I presume that while he was, quote, on the run, he was really reaching out to a host of lawyers who were reaching out to the US government who were like, okay, we're going to make an agreement right now, we're going to come to an agreement. 00:19:41:12 - 00:20:05:21 Cas Piancey We can come to terms. Everything is going to be okay if we do this the right way, you're going to get a sweetheart deal and everything will be good for you. Ultimately, that's what that's what happened. That's exactly what happened. And that is very smart of Arthur Hayes to have done. I, I might not agree with him on much of anything, but I respect him, for one, owning up to it and dealing with it like at least he did that. 00:20:06:16 - 00:20:35:05 Cas Piancey On the other hand, people who I think deserve to go to prison for a really long time being Su Zhu and Kyle Davies at the very least, at least they've completely shut their mouths. At least they've shut the hell up left Twitter and are just living their lives, staying silent because that's ultimately going that's the best way that if you're going to try to actually get away with massive fraud, that's the only way it's going to work for you. 00:20:35:05 - 00:20:58:21 Cas Piancey Do Kwon constantly tweeting and talking. I don't care what VPN you have, I don't care if you're in an extra an extradition free country, which, by the way, I want to make sure people understand there's only about 75 countries that have an extradition policy with South Korea. So there's plenty of places that Do Kwon could go where they wouldn't where they wouldn't extradite him to South Korea. 00:20:58:27 - 00:21:15:26 Cas Piancey Like they don't care if there's an Interpol red notice for him. It doesn't matter to them as far as they're concerned. He can hang out with his, I would assume, handful of million dollars. I don't think he has billions like people have suggested. I think I think he is not liquid in any real sense of the word. 00:21:16:01 - 00:21:24:05 Bennett Tomlin Even even in places without an extradition treaty, he still might have issues getting a visa, getting across the border, getting like through immigration. 00:21:24:05 - 00:21:26:25 Cas Piancey A lot easier for very wealthy people, though. 00:21:27:16 - 00:21:49:22 Bennett Tomlin And we've talked a little bit before on this show about how it's not really that great to be a fugitive on the run, like there's often in a lot of the planning for these types of criminals. Paul Le Roux, Zu and Kyle Davies, even perhaps a little bit with the Klan where there's this imagined vision of them as a fugitive setting up in some country and using their resources to basically. 00:21:49:24 - 00:21:51:28 Cas Piancey A lavish lifestyle. 00:21:51:28 - 00:22:02:16 Bennett Tomlin Yet largely unaffected. And the pragmatic reality is that's not often what happens. And that like they as you find yourself, they can't do it. 00:22:02:16 - 00:22:22:25 Cas Piancey These these are these are the personality types where you and I who don't want to be billionaires ever like we don't we if someone handed me $150 million, yeah, I would probably use some of it in ways that matter and donate to some things I care about or whatever. But like largely I would just be like, well, I got to retire forever now and do whatever the fuck I want. 00:22:23:03 - 00:22:46:16 Cas Piancey So that's why I will never have $150 million or $1,000,000,000 or whatever. Meanwhile, people like Paul Le Roux or Don Juan constantly want more, constantly need more, constantly this greed, this desire that they cannot stop and that is their that is always their downfall. Always their downfall. That's what happened with Paul Le Roux, who we are going to hopefully have. 00:22:47:24 - 00:23:12:02 Cas Piancey Yeah. Have the ability to talk about that more in depth. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But yeah I agree with you. Like it. Ultimately what I think will be his downfall is his arrogance and his greed. Not nothing. Nothing when it comes to like, Oh, he'll step in. He's just going to the wrong country right now or whatever. Like, no, I'm sure he's I'm sure he's ultimately right now in a relatively safe place. 00:23:12:02 - 00:23:13:29 Cas Piancey And that's why he's saying the things he's saying online. 00:23:14:12 - 00:23:36:01 Bennett Tomlin Listen, I know it sounds idyllic in your head, in your imagination, to spend your life lounging on a yacht floating several miles off the coast of some place, occasionally docking in like non extradition places to resupply. But like, it's it's really not fun to have a whole bunch of international authorities trying to shut down your accounts and your credit cards and your phones. 00:23:36:01 - 00:23:45:04 Bennett Tomlin And like anything, they can get access to in anything they can touch. And you're like world being so shrunk, the places you can go, the things you can do, the people you can even legally interact. 00:23:45:04 - 00:24:21:12 Cas Piancey That's almost always been the number one failure for these criminals is that if you have family and friends like you want to see them again, you eventually want to see them again and almost always that gets you caught. I wrote an article about Gerald Cotten, who was the founder of QuadrigaCX, and I was writing about death fraud, which is like this concept that people, whether it's for insurance or for whatever it may be, think of their own deaths and disappear forever. 00:24:21:12 - 00:24:23:10 Bennett Tomlin Insolvent cryptocurrency exchange. 00:24:23:17 - 00:24:59:00 Cas Piancey So. So that. Yeah. So the reason I was writing this about Gerald Cotten is there's a rumor there's, there's no one knows what happened to him. It seems like he legitimately died in India, but there are thoughts that he could have faked his own death. And I was writing about death, fraud and how almost universally it fails because people talk to their wives or they talk to their children or they talk to their cousins or they talk to their friends and the people who you think are going to give you up or that maybe you're not being super closely followed and everything is going to be fine. 00:24:59:20 - 00:25:23:29 Cas Piancey It never works out for you and I. This dude has a wife and a kid and he has I understand the want like having to face criminal charges, especially in a place like South Korea that can hand down some very, very heavy consequences to any kind of criminal. I get it. But also just constantly being on the run. 00:25:24:02 - 00:25:26:25 Cas Piancey I like who wants who wants that? 00:25:27:03 - 00:26:11:29 Bennett Tomlin One thing I do want to come back to before we kind of wrap this up, was your comment about how Su Zhu and Kyle have been silent? Well, Do has been loud. And like previously, I said, Do needs to be loud because his people are the small little idiots, not the big, dangerous idiots with a lot of money. And so I think that's part of the dynamic here, too, is Do needs to keep his fans, his marks interested and connected to him as like this figurehead, whereas Kyle and Zu had taken a bunch of money from other people and I think that they they are much more nervous about the consequences of their public statements and 00:26:11:29 - 00:26:17:19 Bennett Tomlin how those people who gave them money may feel about them and what recourses they may seek. 00:26:18:03 - 00:26:52:08 Cas Piancey Right. Yeah, I, I agree. I agree with that. I think you make a good point about it's ultimately it's better for, for Kyle Davies and sees you to just kind of shut shut up because perhaps they pissed off the wrong people, which I could very well see being absolutely true. But I do think that's kind of giving not enough credit to Do Kwon who absolutely pissed off everybody. 00:26:52:08 - 00:27:15:02 Cas Piancey I, I don't know. I don't know I, I have already bet money with Nicholas Weaver, our old guest, that I believe Do Kwon will absolutely get arrested within what I say a year. I think I said two years. Maybe it's two years. He will he will be facing trial within two years is our bet. And I stick to that man. 00:27:15:02 - 00:27:39:16 Cas Piancey I think it's really hard to be on the run. I think it is mentally taxing. It is physically taxing and it is generally just not fun in any meaningful way. And I don't think Do Kwon is capable of it, to be quite honest with you. I think he's a keyboard warrior shitbag and that the idea of prison scares them enough to be on the run right now. 00:27:39:25 - 00:28:04:06 Cas Piancey But that changes within 6 to 8 months. He's, he's, he has his heart in it. Who knows? Maybe I'm wrong, but regardless what we want to do here at Crypto Critic's Corner is start the dope on defense fund. So for every like and subscribe that we get, that means we are going to be putting 10,000 Luna tokens and Terra tokens into the dock on Defense Fund. 00:28:04:06 - 00:28:17:07 Cas Piancey So make sure that you give us likes and subscribes if you want to save this man also. Definitely we are not doing that. It is a lie. Please don't take this seriously. Anyone. Thank you.